Calvin-ism Leads to Heaven!

[john w]

So instead of providing the asked for chapter and verse saying that, "Abortion is murder," I have to read this lengthy explanation by someone who isn't a scriptural author telling me that this is what 'Exodus 21' means, even though it doesn't say it?

By that "argument," provide chapter, verse, saying that "rape" is evil.

Do be a dear.

 

[john w]

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'abortion is murder' because there isn't one. ...What we don't have to guess at, is that abortion per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament..

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

 

[Idolater]

By that "argument," provide chapter, verse, saying that "rape" is evil.

Do be a dear.

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

We've covered this, St. John. The bishops teach all these things explicitly. They derive their teaching authority from the Apostles, who created them. They teach that rape is grave sin. The bishops are given to us for just this purpose, to know the authentic Christian faith; to have a reliable source of truth. Timothy and Titus were bishops. Paul wrote to them. It's in the Bible.

 

[john w]

We've covered this, St. John. The bishops teach all these things explicitly. They derive their teaching authority from the Apostles, who created them. They teach that rape is grave sin. The bishops are given to us for just this purpose, to know the authentic Christian faith; to have a reliable source of truth. Timothy and Titus were bishops. Paul wrote to them. It's in the Bible.

Evasion. Misdirection. You argued:

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'abortion is murder' because there isn't one. ...What we don't have to guess at, is that abortion per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament..

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one, and rape per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

 

[john w]

We've covered this, St. John. The bishops teach all these things explicitly. They derive their teaching authority from the Apostles, who created them. They teach that rape is grave sin. The bishops are given to us for just this purpose, to know the authentic Christian faith; to have a reliable source of truth. Timothy and Titus were bishops. Paul wrote to them. It's in the Bible.

Prove that these alleged bishops,either dead, or alive today, who allegedly teach explicity,that rape is a grave sin, were/are bishops, and that they derived their authority from the 12.

I assert that I am a bishop. Prove that I am not. I say rape is not a sin.


Check.

 

[Idolater]

Evasion. Misdirection. You argued:


And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one, and rape per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament.

I know that. But the bishops are mentioned plenty of times in Scripture. 1st & 2nd Timoty, and Titus, are written to bishops. Peter addresses part of his epistle to bishops.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

Nope, you made that up.

 

[Idolater]

Prove that these alleged bishops,either dead, or alive today, who allegedly teach explicity,that rape is a grave sin, were/are bishops, and that they derived their authority from the 12.

I assert that I am a bishop. Prove that I am not. I say rape is not a sin.


Check.

Were you ever ordained a bishop, by a bishop? Here are some people who were never consecrated bishops: Martin Luther. John Clavin.

 

[Right Divider]

I know that. But the bishops are mentioned plenty of times in Scripture. 1st & 2nd Timoty, and Titus, are written to bishops. Peter addresses part of his epistle to bishops.

And yet "bishop succession" is conspicuously absent.

 

[Idolater]

And yet "bishop succession" is conspicuously absent.

Yes, like abortion, rape, child rape, the Trinity, pornography, masturbation, etc. Though we do know that the bishops created by the Apostles were empowered to create new bishops themselves, and we know that because it's right in the text of the New Testament.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, like abortion, rape, child rape, the Trinity, pornography, masturbation, etc. Though we do know that the bishops created by the Apostles were empowered to create new bishops themselves, and we know that because it's right in the text of the New Testament.

You continue to make all kinds of claims WITHOUT any evidence to support it.

If it was in the text, you could show it.

God appointed Timothy and not Paul

1Ti 1:18 KJV This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;​

​

​

 

[Idolater]

You continue to make all kinds of claims WITHOUT any evidence to support it.

If it was in the text, you could show it.

God appointed Timothy and not Paul

1Ti 1:18 KJV This charge I commit unto thee, son Timothy, according to the prophecies which went before on thee, that thou by them mightest war a good warfare;​

​

​

With what are you disagreeing? That bishops are the Church's authentic pastors, or that Timothy was a bishop?

 

[Right Divider]

With what are you disagreeing? That bishops are the Church's authentic pastors, or that Timothy was a bishop?

That there is a succession of this office throughout history and that your supposed organization is the authority on the faith.

 

[Idolater]

That there is a succession of this office throughout history and that your supposed organization is the authority on the faith.

Paul counsels bishops about laying their hands upon new bishops, what attributes to look for, what ones to avoid, in making their decisions, which clearly is theirs to make. We see the very beginning of succession right in the text of the New Testament. We see its continuation through the study of Church history; it never ceased, to this day; the imposition of hands, which began right in the Apostolic age, recorded for us in Scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

Paul counsels bishops about laying their hands upon new bishops, what attributes to look for, what ones to avoid, in making their decisions, which clearly is theirs to make. We see the very beginning of succession right in the text of the New Testament. We see its continuation through the study of Church history; it never ceased, to this day; the imposition of hands, which began right in the Apostolic age, recorded for us in Scripture.

And YET you provide not even a single scripture reference to support your statement.

This is a consistent pattern of yours. Vain claims with NO support.

 

[john w]

I know that. But the bishops are mentioned plenty of times in Scripture. 1st & 2nd Timoty, and Titus, are written to bishops. Peter addresses part of his epistle to bishops.
Nope, you made that up.

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'abortion is murder' because there isn't one. ...What we don't have to guess at, is that abortion per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament..

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one, and rape per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

 

[john w]

Were you ever ordained a bishop, by a bishop? Here are some people who were never consecrated bishops: Martin Luther. John Clavin.

Evasion.
Prove that these alleged bishops,either dead, or alive today, who allegedly teach explicity,that rape is a grave sin, were/are bishops, and that they derived their authority from the 12.

I assert that I am a bishop. Prove that I am not. I say rape is not a sin.


Check.

 

[Idolater]

And you cannot produce a scripture that says 'rape is evil' because there isn't one, and rape per se is never mentioned in Scripture, Old or New Testament.

Therefore, you are on record-you assert rape is not evil.

That's not my argument.

 

[Idolater]

Evasion.
Prove that these alleged bishops,either dead, or alive today, who allegedly teach explicity,that rape is a grave sin, were/are bishops, and that they derived their authority from the 12.

I assert that I am a bishop. Prove that I am not. I say rape is not a sin.


Check.

Your turn table is skipping, St. John.

Were you ever ordained a bishop, by a bishop? If not, there's no mystery. There's never been a bishop who didn't know they were a bishop. There's never been any doubt. Bishops are created through the imposition of hands, not in a dream, or in a vision by God. He didn't make things all mystical like that, there's never any question. Some bishop somewhere is personally responsible for creating every bishop alive today, and this pattern began with the Apostles, and has continued to this day unceasingly.

 

[Right Divider]

Your turn table is skipping, St. John.

Were you ever ordained a bishop, by a bishop? If not, there's no mystery. There's never been a bishop who didn't know they were a bishop. There's never been any doubt. Bishops are created through the imposition of hands, not in a dream, or in a vision by God. He didn't make things all mystical like that, there's never any question. Some bishop somewhere is personally responsible for creating every bishop alive today, and this pattern began with the Apostles, and has continued to this day unceasingly.

Please show us the scripture that calls the twelve apostles for the twelve tribes of Israel bishops.

 

[JudgeRightly]

The only thing that article explained was that I should listen to some other source, other than the Scripture itself, to understand something about my faith. I already do that, with the Church's own authentic and authorized teachers of the faith, not someone who wrote an article.

So don't be a hypocrite, then.

Yes I do. I've said as much, and provided my reasoning for it, and you have no reason to doubt me.

Whatever.

So yes then. A crime is something that is against the law.

:AMR:

So you believe in some form of Christendom then, that the civil authorities ought to force people to abide by Christian morality.

No.

I think that man's laws should reflect God's law.

How are you different from the Catholic Church, who you hate so much, of the middle ages?

I'm sorry, I don't follow?

Yes, and none.

Good, I'm going to hold you to that in just a moment.

And you didn't answer my questions.

Which were?

I don't need to do that.

Uh, yeah, you do. You made the assertion, now support it. Haven't you ever heard of onus probandi?

All I was showing was that David doesn't sound like he thought that he was an innocent person in the womb, when he says, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

So was David innocent in the womb or not?

If not, what sin or crime did he commit?

I'm not. "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."

:AMR:

You realise David is writing poetry, yes?

When bringing the baby to full term endangers the mother's life.

So provide a scenario where it would be necessary to stop trying to save the mother and kill the baby.

It does happen. It has happened.

Then provide an example.

We know of many examples throughout history of it happening. It can happen today.

So PROVIDE AN EXAMPLE!

You keep saying it can happen. I agree. Provide an example and we can discuss it.

I've been making my point. It's that abortion, the Trinity, rape, pedophilia, pornography, masturbation, are not found explicitly in the Bible, are not issues for me, since I heed the teaching office of the Church,

Where did they get their material on those and other topics?

which is found explicitly in the Bible, and they teach explicitly on all these things, besides that which the Bible does explicitly teach.

Does it teach about those things at all?

Or is it completely barren on those subjects?

No, just that, for you all who insist on 'Sola Scriptura,' then if something does not happen to be mentioned explicitly in Scripture, means that you all have to extrapolate and interpolate from the text, and that those who heed the bishops don't have to do that.

Sounds like you rely more on the bishops than you do scripture.

Look, and I think you would agree, just because something isn't explicitly mentioned in scripture does NOT mean that it isn't mentioned at all.

You seem to think that it's either mentioned explicitly or it's not mentioned at all, but since the bishops taught me, I know what to believe.

Tell me, what is wrong with extrapolating what the Bible says when you have a good foundation of knowledge of what it says?

If I were making an argument, then perhaps I'd agree with your estimation, but I wasn't. I made a factual claim, that "you cannot produce a scripture that says 'abortion is murder' because there isn't one."

And I agreed.

I also responded that just because the Bible doesn't say explicitly "abortion is murder" one cannot find the Bible condemning abortion.

Does the Bible say killing the innocent is murder?

No, I don't mean the phrase, I mean, does the Bible call killing the innocent murder?

It is true, but it's still not an argument, but just a factual statement.

Right, John the Baptist is said to have already "filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother’s womb," (Lk1:15KJV), and that he "leaped" (Lk2:41 KJV Lk2:44KJV) when the Lord, also Himself still in the Blessed Virgin's

Are you a Mary worshipper? Just call her Mary (or Miriam, if you prefer)

womb, was nigh.

So is a child a person?

Right, which is not abortion,

I didn't call it abortion.

which is when the pregnant woman elects to terminate her own pregnancy.

Correction: Abortion is when the pregnant woman chooses to kill her own baby.

And yet David says, "I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me." I'm not saying that because of what David said, that abortion isn't gravely immoral, it is, but you're making a claim about the innocence of an unborn child, without providing any scriptural reference to back that up,

I asked you:

Do you consider the baby in the womb a person, first of all, and if so, what crime have they committed?

And you replied:

Yes, and none.

I have now asked you (in this post) the following:

Does the Bible call killing the innocent murder?

If so, would it not logically follow that killing a baby (a person who is innocent) in the womb, what we today call "abortion," is murder?

and yet here is a scriptural reference that defies your claim, at the very least, in the case of David.

Exodus 20:13, Matthew 18:18 You shall not murder.
Exodus 23:7 Do not kill the innocent.
Deuteronomy 27:25 Cursed is the one who takes a bribe to slay an innocent person. (Huh, sounds like abortion...)
Jeremiah 2:34-35, 22:17; Ezekiel 23:37; 2 Kings 23:10

Exodus 21:22-25; 21:33-36, 22:5-6

You're building a house of cards that can crumble.

House of Cards?

Never seen it. Not interested either.

Me? I listen to the bishops. No house of cards.

No?

So you've never heard of the game "Chinese Whispers"?

You're unaware of "Let God be true and every man a liar?"

Since the first century the Church has affirmed the moral evil of every procured abortion. This teaching has not changed and remains unchangeable. Direct abortion, that is to say, abortion willed either as an end or a means, is gravely contrary to the moral law: You shall not kill the embryo by abortion and shall not cause the newborn to perish. God, the Lord of life, has entrusted to men the noble mission of safeguarding life, and men must carry it out in a manner worthy of themselves. Life must be protected with the utmost care from the moment of conception: abortion and infanticide are abominable crimes.​

Pretty sure that's not in the Bible...

Could you provide scripture for that?

Yeah. Because it's not in the text. I'm just going by what the Bible says, and doesn't say. You're trying to make the text say something it doesn't.

I am? Who's the one who said Exodus 21:22 was talking about a "miscarriage", which has a different connotation (and in fact is not the word used in the Hebrew) than "premature birth" (which is what the verse actually says)?

Hypocrite. Beam, eye. Remove it.

This was really just an aside. The point/fact is that abortion as we know it today isn't mentioned in the Bible,

Because abortion is a combination of crimes that ARE addressed in the Bible.

Deuteronomy 27:25
Exodus 20:13
Exodus 23:7

Ring any bells?

and I was offering up a conjecture about why perhaps it isn't there.

A bit overzealous with the logical fallacies there, JR.

Which ones? Please point them out.

You're a person with only a hammer, and everything looks like a nail to you.
What's the difference between that, and what I said, that, "all pregnancies were rightly considered blessings?"

:AMR:

I don't necessarily disagree with you, but again, this whole line was an aside, and a conjecture.

It doesn't say anything, about why abortion as we know it today, isn't mentioned.

It is mentioned, or, rather, addressed, just not "explicitly."

That's why the conjecture.

Wasn't worth it.

That we have the bishops,

Where do the bishops get their material from?

if we avail ourselves of their service and heed them, and who do mention these things per se.

Again, where do the bishops get their material from?

We firmly believe and confess without reservation that there is only one true God, eternal infinite (immensus) and unchangeable, incomprehensible, almighty and ineffable, the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit; three persons indeed, but one essence, substance or nature entirely simple.

Rape is the forcible violation of the sexual intimacy of another person. It does injury to justice and charity. Rape deeply wounds the respect, freedom, and physical and moral integrity to which every person has a right. It causes grave damage that can mark the victim for life. It is always an intrinsically evil act. Graver still is the rape of children committed by parents (incest) or those responsible for the education of the children entrusted to them.

​

:blabla:

I read the Scripture itself.

But you rely on someone else to interpret it for you.

BORING!

What need should I have to read something else?

I could say the same thing about your reliance on what the bishops say. :think:

That wasn't hard, and I agree with you, as I've continued to say. We agree that abortion is grave sin.

Yet you continue to refuse to admit that killing an innocent person is murder.

You continue to resist what I'm saying is a fact, that abortion, as the pregnant woman's election to terminate her own pregnancy, is not mentioned in the Bible.

And you keep missing the point.

The Bible addresses abortion. Just not directly.

It calls the killing of the innocent murder.

It calls the baby in the womb a child.

A child is a person.

Therefore, killing children is murder.

It makes no difference where the child is, killing a child is murder.

It's not in the text.

Again, missing the point.

See above.

But you don't have all the pieces, not from the Scripture.

Not once have I had to rely on what any bishop (or article writer, for that matter) says.

Everything I have said comes directly from the Bible.

They're not all in the text.

God says don't murder. He says don't kill the innocent. A baby in the womb is the most innocent thing in the world. Ergo, killing a baby in the womb is murder.

ALL THAT from Scripture.

You introduce pieces that aren't in the text.

Such as?

I'm fully capable of doing Protestant hermeneutics. I've been trained in the activity. I've done it for many years. It's how I finally found the bishops, and the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. "This is My body" x 4.

:blabla: :blabla:

It has to do with explicit and authoritative teaching on the matter, something the Bible does not do here.

Saying it doesn't make it so, Idolater.

The Bible calls killing the innocent murder.

A baby in the womb it calls a child.

Children are innocent.

Therefore, the murder of innocent children in the womb is MURDER. That is the definition of abortion.

No, but you do care what some biblical commentators and interpreters say, so long as it agrees with your own private interpretation.

Actually I don't. I just care if what they say agrees with scripture.

By the way, have you told me where the bishops get their material from?

idk why you don't accept the reality that the Apostles designated certain men

I'll let Paul answer this one:

And He [JR NOTE: Jesus] Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers,for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ;that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting,but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ—from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love. - Ephesians 4:11-16 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Ephesians4:11-16&version=NKJV

to be bishops, and that they instituted the method by which new bishops are created, both of which are found in the New Testament.

Scripture please?

We agree.
The bishops don't teach their opinion. :blabla:

So what DO they teach?

Because the bishops are 'plainly said in the Bible,' and the bishops plainly teach the Trinity.

Anything else?

That's circular. Logical fallacy.

I have already shown that the Bible and logic supports what I said which is why I summarized it as "the truth," but here, allow me to repeat:

The Bible calls the baby in the womb a child.

A baby is the most innocent thing in the world.

The Bible also calls killing the innocent murder.

Therefore, killing a baby in the womb is murder, because it is the killing of an innocent person.

God commanded killing babies. That's also in the text.

Are you seriously trying to besmirch God? Shame on you. :angry:

:banned:

I expect that argument from ATHEISTS, not from people who claim to be Christian.

God has the right, as the creator of man, to take the life of His creation, even if innocent, to move a creature He designed to live in two stages from stage one (this life) to stage 2 (the afterlife).

Man does not.

You do read the same words that I do wrt bishops and elders and overseers, right? I mean 'plain' like, in black-and-white.

I read the 66 books of the Bible.

I don't bother with anything else, because it's not authoritative.

No one, is claiming that. Straw man. Logical fallacy.

I should hope not.

Why do the non-Apostle authors of the New Testament have the authority to pen Scripture? Luke? Mark? Not Apostles, yet they wrote Scripture. How? Because the Apostles confirmed what they wrote was accurate Apostolic teaching, and so now, it's Scripture.

Still relying on men.

Have you ever considered that God had something to do with what was considered "scripture", in that He inspired the authors to write what they wrote?

False dilemma. Logical fallacy.

You disagree?

Yep.
'Not seeing it, not on my end.

:AMR: