Calvin-ism Leads to Heaven!

JudgeRightly

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You don't think these massive false doctrines could have been helped along by the forces of darkness?
I think that it's certainly possible, but I don't think it's likely.

I think it's mostly, if not completely, a result of not reading and understanding what is plainly written, along with trying to force pagan ideas into scripture, all combined with the fallible nature of man.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
The acronym TULIP does not add to scripture, but it summarises the 5 basic points of God's gospel truth!
Is one of those 'basic points' Christ's Resurrection?
Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace and Perseverance of the saints!
Which one of those is Christ's Resurrection?
This TULIP is the glorious truth of God.
Where is Christ's Resurrection?
Without the resurrection there is no gospel. But the gospel is more than just the resurrection.
Agreed.
The five points of TULIP are gospel truth!
Where is Christ's Resurrection in TULIP?
 

Ask Mr. Religion

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TULIP is man-made.

A nice tactic that overlooks the plain fact that once you start summarizing what you think Scripture teaches, you are doing man-made work. You even went so far as to provide another man's efforts to support your "man-made" vs. "Just Me and My Bible" cavil. The statement to the effect "I do not follow the works of man, but only the Bible" is actually a man-made statement, a self-refuting statement of what has just been claimed. If you were actually honest about such a claim you would never post anything in a discussion site except direct quotations from Scripture. Of course, the discerning see the nonsense of this. Irony abounds and your desire to be your own pope is made clear.

TULIP is an acrostic created by a nineteenth century pastor as a memory aid to describe summaries of the doctrines of grace from Scripture. These doctrines of grace were summarized at Dordt in response to the actual points made by the Remonstrants. Calvin did not invent TULIP. In fact, he had been dead for around 50 years by the time of the convening of Dordt to respond to the Remonstrants.

The Scripture support for the doctrines of grace summaries contained with TULIP are manifold. To claim something is man-made and somehow irrelevant to discussions concerning doctrine is an amateur's mistake.

Spoiler

To me, the teachings of Scripture are absolutely and unmistakably clear about the fundamental aspects of our salvation:

(1) sinners are utterly helpless to redeem themselves or to contribute anything meritorious toward their own salvation (Romans 8:7-8);
(2) God is sovereign in the exercise of His saving will (Ephesians 1:4-5);
(3) Jesus Christ's substitutionary death on behalf of His people bore the full weight of God's wrath on behalf of His people, and Jesus Christ's atoning work alone is efficacious for the salvation of His people (Isaiah 53:5);
(4) the saving purpose of God cannot be thwarted (John 6:37), thus none of Jesus Christ's true sheep will ever be lost (John 10:27-29), because
(5) the perseverance of Jesus Christ's elect are assured by God (Jude 24; Philemon 1:6; 1 Peter 1:5).


TOTAL DEPRAVITY (Radical Corruption) - "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?? (Jer 17:9)
Man has a will and his will is in bondage to his nature. The will of man is free to choose according to the dictates of his nature, but it is not free to contradict his nature. From Adam's fall the nature of every man has been sinful. Therefore, every action of the unsaved man is sinful and rebellious; it is stained through and through by his sin nature. The unregenerate man cannot perform even one single righteous or pleasing work with respect to a holy God, for their actions are wrongly motivated, that is, not for the glory of God, and are but filthy rags in the eyes of God.

See: Genesis 6:5, Genesis 8:19, Genesis 8:21, Jeremiah 17:9, Psalm 22:29, Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Psalm 130:3, Psalm 143:2, Proverbs 20:9, Job 14:4, Job 15:14-16, Ecclesiastes 7:20, Ecclesiastes 7:29, Ecclesiastes 9:3, Isaiah 53:6, Isaiah 64:6-7, Jeremiah 13:23, Jeremiah 17:9, 2 Chronicles 6:36, John 3:3, John 3:19, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 8:44, Romans 3:9-18, Romans 5:12, Romans 5:18-19, Romans 6:20, Romans 7:18, Romans 7:23-24, Romans 8:7-8, 1 Corinthians 2:14, Ephesians 2:1-3, Ephesians 4:18, 2 Timothy 2:26-26, 1 John 3:4, 1 John 3:10, 1 John 5:19, Titus 3:3

UNCONDITIONAL ELECTION (Sovereign Election) – “... though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls..” (Rom 9:11)
God’s election is truly unconditional. The foreknowledge of God is based upon His decree, plan, and purpose; it is the expression of His will and good pleasure, not a response to man's free-will choices. Election is the sovereign act of God the Father choosing specific individuals out from the entire body of condemned and fallen humanity. These individuals were chosen before the foundations of the universe and not as a result of any foreseen merit or activity or decision on their part. These chosen or elect individuals are purposed to become monuments to the Father's love for all of eternity. In this regard it is understood election is an example of God’s "love before time."

See: Deuteronomy 7:6-8, Deuteronomy 10:14-15, Lamentations 5:21, Isaiah 55:11, Amos 3:2, Jeremiah 1:5, Matthew 7:23, Matthew 24:22-24, Matthew 24:31, Luke 12:6-7, John 6:37-39, John 6:44, John 6:65, John 15:16, John 17:19, Acts 2:23, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 17:26, Acts 18:27, Romans 8:28-39, Romans 9:11-16, Romans 11:5, 1 Corinthians 1:26-31, 1 Corinthians 8:3, Ephesians 1:1-14, Ephesians 2:4-10, 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5, 1 Thessalonians 5:9, 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Timothy 5:21, 2 Timothy 1:9-10, 2 Timothy 2:19, 2 Timothy 2:25, 1 Peter 1:1-2, 1 Peter 1:4-5, 1 Peter 1:20, 2 Peter 1:5-11

LIMITED ATONEMENT (Particular Redemption) - "...you shall call his name Jesus, for he will save his people from their sins." (Matt 1:21)
In order to accomplish the specific will of the Father, Christ took to the Cross the sins of the elect. Christ died for the sins of men without distinction as to race or nationality (that is, Jew or Gentile) that no man can number. He provided a complete and effectual atonement for their sins. Those whom Christ redeemed, Christ really and truly redeemed (actual not potential). Though infinite in value, Christ's atoning work was specific in its design. Some prefer to call this "definite atonement" or "particular redemption". The death of Christ at Calvary does not make men savable, but rather it saves men completely. The Cross is a completed, successful work that requires no assistance from man. Christ died for all of the sins of the elect. Other views of the scope of the atonement must avoid the idea of all the sins lest these views proclaim a universal salvation. For, if Christ died for all of the sins of all men without exception, upon what basis would any man be denied heaven? Remember, unbelief is a sin and therefore a sin for which Christ died if He has truly died for all the sins of all men without exception.

See: Psalm 34:22, Isaiah 53:8, Matthew 1:21, Matthew 20:28, Matthew 26:28, Luke 1:68, Luke 2:1-2, Luke 19:10, John 3:16 (the Father gave His Son for whom? - according to this verse the Son was given for whoever believes in Him (the believing ones) not for the ones not believing in Him), John 5:13, John 6:35-40, John 10:11, John 10:14 -18, John 10:24-29, John 12:32, John 17:1-11, John 17:20, John 17:24-26, Acts 20:28, Romans 5:8-10, Romans 5:18, Romans 8:32-34, Galatians 3:13, Ephesians 1:3-4, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:15-16, Ephesians 5:25-27, Hebrews 2:9, Hebrews 2:17, Hebrews 3:1, Hebrews 9:12, Hebrews 9:28, Hebrews 10:14, Colossians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:14-15, 2 Corinthians 5:18-19, 1 Timothy 1:15, 2 Timothy 2:4-6, 2 Peter 3:9, 1 John 2:1-2, 1 John 4:14, Titus 2:14, Revelation 5:9.

IRRESISTIBLE GRACE (Effectual Election) - "...those whom he called he also justified?" (Rom 8:30)
The Holy Spirit, in agreement with the electing will of the Father and the atoning work of the Son, does in the fullness of time quicken the dead spirit of a man and give to him the gift of saving faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. The logical order of salvation is regeneration first, followed by faith/believing. Since dead men do not respond, God must make them alive first (Eph 2:4-5); regeneration, of necessity, precedes any action or activity on the part of man, including faith and repentance. Hence, every single individual upon whom the Spirit of God moves savingly is regenerated, born again, adopted, grafted in, and saved eternally. This saving grace is not coercion. Rather, by transforming the heart, this grace makes the believer wholly willing to trust and obey.

See: Deuteronomy 30:6, Isaiah 55:7, Ezekiel 11:19-20, Ezekiel 18:23, Ezekiel 36:26-27, John 1:12-13 but of God, John 1:12-13, John 3:3-8, John 5:21, John 5:24 - the perfect tense verb reads has already passed from death unto life, John 6:37-39, John 6:38, John 10:16, John 11:14-15, John 11:25, John 11:38-44 , John 17:2, Acts 2:38, Acts 5:31, Acts 11:18, Acts 13:48, Acts 16:14, Acts 17:30, Acts 18:27, Romans 8:8, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 8:32, Romans 9:16, Galatians 6:15, Ephesians 1:3, Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 1:13, Ephesians 2:1-10, Philippians 1:29, Philippians 2:12-13, 1 Corinthians 4:7, 1 Corinthians 6:11, 1 Corinthians 12:3, 2 Corinthians 3:6, 2 Corinthians 3:17, 2 Corinthians 5:17-18, Colossians 2:13, James 1:18, 2 Timothy 2:25, Titus 3:5, 1 Peter 1:2-3, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 John 5:1 - a perfect tense verb used here and reads has already been born of God, 1 John 3:7, 1 John 5:4.

PERSEVERANCE OF THE SAINTS (The Preservation of The Saints) - "...those whom he justified he also glorified." (Rom 8:30)
Since God is the Author and Finisher of our faith, man cannot fall away from eternal salvation. Once a man has been born-again he cannot be unborn-again. Furthermore, the elect of God will definitely manifest evidences of their salvation by means of good works. The elect shall, by the grace of God and without exception, ultimately persevere in righteousness. The eternal security of the believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is demonstrated by the persevering faith and righteousness wrought by the grace of God in His little begotten ones.

See: Isaiah 43:1-3, Jeremiah 32:40, John 3:16, John 3:36, John 5:24, John 6:35-40, John 6:47, John 6:51, John 10:27-30, John 11:25, John 14:21, John 15:1-11, John 17:12, John 17:15, Romans 8:29-30, Romans 8:35-39, Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:13-14, Ephesians 2:10 God's workmanship, Ephesians 4:30, Hebrews 5:11-6:12, Philippians 1:6, Philippians 2:12-13, Philippians 3:12-15, 1 Corinthians 1:8 , 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24, 2 Timothy 1:12, 2 Timothy 4:18, 1 Peter 1:3-5, 1 Peter 1:23, 1 Peter 5:10, 2 Peter 2:10, 1 John 2:19, 1 John 2:25, 1 John 3:9, 1 John 5:13, 1 John 5:18, Jude 24-25.


AMR
 

BoyStan

New member
"Is one of those 'basic points' Christ's Resurrection?" Yes indeed. If Christ is not risen then there is no salvation.
Christ is our great High Priest now in the presence of God, and his intercession for us ensures the total validity of the 5 points of the TULIP acronym.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
"Is one of those 'basic points' Christ's Resurrection?" Yes indeed.
Where is it in TULIP?
If Christ is not risen then there is no salvation.
Correct, though Paul goes even further than that, in essentially saying that the Christian faith itself is a FRAUD/SHAM, "if Christ be not risen" (1Co15:14KJV).
Christ is our great High Priest now in the presence of God, and his intercession for us ensures the total validity of the 5 points of the TULIP acronym.
This is like saying that Paul was a Clavinist. You're begging the question. In the sense that you're presuming your position is correct, and then fitting everything to that presupposed conclusion.

The reality is that Catholicism is correct, because it, unlike Evangelicals/Protestants/Clavinists, receives the whole Apostolic witness, their whole body of work and of knowledge, not just the knowledge written down (and then subsequently recognized as Scripture itself). The Apostles didn't only teach what is contained in the New Testament, the New Testament constitutes Apostolic teachings, certainly, but not all of it. They also had tongues, along with pens, and they spread the Gospel, along with their authentic teachings, by word-of-mouth, along with by epistles and other literature.

Luke's Gospel even begins by confirming that what is contained therein was previously only known by word-of-mouth, but that he Luke was committing what was prior to his Gospel oral tradition, to writing. Each New Testament book is a physical recording of Apostolic teaching, that before the authors wrote them, were oral tradition.
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
...once you start summarizing what you think Scripture teaches, you are doing man-made work.
And the activity 'summarizing what the Scripture teaches' is not found in Scripture. What is found, is that there are authentic pastors, the bishops, and their job is to teach, to feed Christ's 'flock,' both in teaching, and in the Eucharist. And this they have done unceasingly from the beginning, and as the centuries have passed, we have seen more and more of that authentic teaching being made abundantly clear for all of us.

Where in prior centuries, we had these bishops who heard what this Apostle said, and these other bishops who heard what this other Apostle said, etc., today we have all these Apostolic teachings integrated together, including the Apostolic teachings committed to writing as found in the New Testament, all found in one place, the 'Catechism of the Catholic Church.'

It's man-made to disregard the episcopal office of the one Church that Christ Himself founded, and that His Apostles administrated/pastored.

And it's man-made to put any 'summary' of Scripture on the same level of authority as Scripture. The bishops don't teach 'summary,' they teach what the Apostles themselves taught.
The statement to the effect "I do not follow the works of man, but only the Bible" is actually a man-made statement
In your opinion, is it right and just to state "I only follow what the bishops authoritatively teach?"
...your desire to be your own pope is made clear.
Who is the authentic pope?
TULIP is an acrostic created by a nineteenth century pastor....
Not by an authentic pastor though, it should be noted. He wasn't the product of Apostolic succession, through the sacrament of Holy Orders, the imposition of hands upon newly consecrated bishops, by already consecrated bishops, this consecration beginning when the Apostles themselves created their own successors, and with their own hands.
...as a memory aid to describe summaries of the doctrines of grace from Scripture.
This is made up man-made work, never mentioned in Scripture. The notion that we are to plumb the depths of Scripture, and only of Scripture, to determine the correct and authentic doctrines of our faith, is nowhere found within Scripture, but what is found there, is the episcopal office, men who are given the assignment of teaching the authentic/Apostolic doctrines, of the one (Eph4:5KJV) Christian faith.
These doctrines of grace were summarized at Dordt in response to the actual points made by the Remonstrants.
It's worth noting that nobody at this time was disagreeing about the centrality of Christ's Resurrection to the one Christian faith, but only about the teachings explaining Christ's Resurrection, in relation to the total expression of the one faith. That is to say, the Protestant Reformers weren't accusing Catholics and Catholic clergy of denying the historicity of Christ's Resurrection, nor of not teaching this central and crowning truth of the faith.
The Scripture support for the doctrines of grace summaries contained with TULIP are manifold.
How do Clavinists explain the fact that Christians commit serious sins, such as the ones listed in various New Testament epistles, warning that such behavior warrants exclusion from the kingdom of God? Do they just conclude that no such serious sinner actually, really believes the Gospel? In effect, making our salvation dependent upon us avoiding serious sins, and forever?
...the teachings of Scripture are absolutely and unmistakably clear about the fundamental aspects of our salvation:
Agreed. When Paul identifies just one thing, Christ's Resurrection (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV), as the sine qua non of the Christian faith (1Co15:14KJV), and also identifies just one tenet, Christ's Resurrection (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV), that is needful for belief in order to be saved (Ro10:9KJV), we know that believing in Christ's Resurrection (Mt28:6KJV Mk16:6KJV Lk24:6KJV) is what is meant by "Whosoever believeth on him" (Ro10:11KJV), "whosoever believeth in him" (Jn3:16KJV), and, "we have believed in Jesus Christ" (Ga2:16KJV).
 

john w

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"Is one of those 'basic points' Christ's Resurrection?" Yes indeed. If Christ is not risen then there is no salvation.
Christ is our great High Priest now in the presence of God, and his intercession for us ensures the total validity of the 5 points of the TULIP acronym.

Christ is our great High Priest=wrong.Pitiful....


A "trans dispensational" principle:

1 John 2:1 KJV

My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

A parent first teaches his child to "sin not."

These are not lost people, sinners, for...

...we have an advocate with the Father,...

It does not say "High Priest"-it says "advocate."

Sinners need a Saviour, a High Priest, not an advocate. The Lord Jesus Christ is only an advocate for God the Father's children, whether it be the believing remnant, the little flock, of the nation Israel, or the boc.
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
You guys are like two sides of the same counterfeit coin.

Exactamundo, RD-Calvinism is just another works-based justification system, a perversion of the gospel of Christ, just "warmed over" Catholicism, as both examine their works, their lifestyle, their "perseverance," to determine if they are justified/saved.

Different cages....same dirty birds.
 

BoyStan

New member
'you're presuming your position is correct, and then fitting everything to that presupposed conclusion.' I know my position is according to God's revealed truth written in the New Testament (2Tim3:15-17)
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Exactamundo, RD-Calvinism is just another works-based justification system, a perversion of the gospel of Christ, just "warmed over" Catholicism, as both examine their works, their lifestyle, their "perseverance," to determine if they are justified/saved.
Do you believe Christ's Resurrection really happened (Ro10:9KJV)? Then you're justified/saved (Ro4:25KJV). Catholicism believes that "the Catholic faithful" and "others who believe in Christ," are both in "a certain . . . communion with the Catholic Church," and we know what believing in Christ, means believing that He is risen (2Ti2:8KJV).
 

john w

New member
Hall of Fame
Do you believe Christ's Resurrection really happened (Ro10:9KJV)? Then you're justified/saved (Ro4:25KJV). Catholicism believes that "the Catholic faithful" and "others who believe in Christ," are both in "a certain . . . communion with the Catholic Church," and we know what believing in Christ, means believing that He is risen (2Ti2:8KJV).

Made up. Those, like yourself, who include works, as a basis of the LORD God's acceptance, justification, pervert the gospel of Christ, making the resurrection of no affect, and the Lord Jesus Christ died in vain.


Get saved, wolf.
 

beloved57

Well-known member
The resurrection of Christ means I am justified (Rom 4:24-25).

I agree, the resurrection of Christ is an testification that those for whom sins He was delivered have been acquitted/justified from their sins. 1 Cor 15:17

17 [FONT=&quot]And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.[/FONT]
 
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