BRXII Battle talk

[PKevman]

I guess they had nothing to say as it relates to the "Time traveling" church fathers, so as is common with most who have embraced false teaching, they just shift and dodge on to the next topic.

 

[Ecumenicist]

I wonder if regurgitory and purgatory are the same waiting room? I guess so. That
would be Hades, the place of the (un)dead. Might as well mix in some Greek mythology
as well...

 

[Ecumenicist]

So, we have purgatory, regurgitory, a seperate place for martyrs, and there must
be yet another waiting room forthe right wing eternal torment types who actually
get it right and await their final reward.

Or... we could go with what Scripture says. Its much simpler.

Rev 21:
1Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. 2I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. 3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. 4He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."

Now, I know, the ETers don't see it this way, they want to rewrite it so that it says
"no more pain, except for those suffering eternal torment, but we won't talk about them."

 

[logos_x]

I guess they had nothing to say as it relates to the "Time traveling" church fathers, so as is common with most who have embraced false teaching, they just shift and dodge on to the next topic.

Kevin, when someone disagrees with your doctrine it is inevitable that this kind of statement is made. The opponent is accused of shifting and dodging, and it is called "common" that people who embrace "false teaching" must do this.

The trouble with this kind of rhetoric is it is true of the people who believe in eternal torment as much as anyone.

A statement like this is simply designed to get people to disregard all arguments against your view. I've tried to avoid this kind of statement as much as possible. But since you have made one, I would simply say that it applies to those who believe as you do as well.

An honest look at history shows that the majority of the early church believed that all would eventually be saved. The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge by Schaff-Herzog (v 12, pg 96), “In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist; one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked.”

The theological school in Rome was the only one that taught endless punishment. They had abandoned the Greek scriptures and were working from a Latin translation. Once the Roman Empire made Christianity a state religion, their particular views began to be enforced...literally...and 600 years of church history began to be called heretical because they disagreed with Rome.

Eternal torment was first systematized by Augustine...a man who said he HATED Greek.
Wonder why? :think:

But..hey, it's a forgone conclusion that, if you remain in the theological box you are in, you will see anything outside that box as false even if it happens to be true. Once eternal torment is believed to be true, and doubting it is forbidden...well, might as well try to drive a loaded camel though the eye of a needle as try to persuade otherwise.

 

[Nineveh]

I guess they had nothing to say as it relates to the "Time traveling" church fathers, so as is common with most who have embraced false teaching, they just shift and dodge on to the next topic.

Looks that way....

 

[logos_x]

I guess they had nothing to say as it relates to the "Time traveling" church fathers.

What was said about "Time traveling" church fathers?
How far back do I have to look to find it?

Never mind...I found it.

 

[logos_x]

Stephen,
Most of what you have said has already been well refuted in other posts
and in the Battle Royale. This however is something that really needs to
be set straight. The early church concurred with the teachings of the apostles
as it relates to eternal punishment, not the other way around as you attempt
to assert. In actuality Origen's doctrines were dismissed as heretical.
They found little acceptance within the Biblically sound members of the
early church. There are many quotes from the early Christians that show
how utterly wrong and deceiving Universalism is.

Consider now you said that the doctrine of eternal torment eminated out
of Rome in the 6th century. Let's examine that a bit:

Time Travel or clear understanding of the Bible?

Polycarp, who was a disciple of John, said this:

"You threaten me with fire that burns for one hour and
then cools, not knowing the judgment to come, nor the perpetual torment
of eternal fire to the ungodly"

I guess he must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order to get the
concept of eternal punishment and then go back to his time and say those
words? I think not. He got it right from the Word of God and the teaching
of John himself! Polycarp lived between 70-155 AD, incidentally.

Commenting on a verse in Ephesians, Ignatius had this to say:
"One so defiled will go into unquenchable fire,
and in like manner he who heareth him"Ignatius was born in
AD 50 and was martyred somewhere between 98-117 AD.

I guess Ignatius must have time-travelled to 6th century Rome in order
to pass the heretical doctrine back to the early church?

In The Shepherd of Hermas we find this:"Those which fell into the fire and
were burned, are those who have departed for ever from the living
God; nor does the thought of repentance ever come into their hearts, on
account of their devotion to their lusts and to the crimes which they committed"
This is dated sometime between 100-160. Man I hope they have left somewhere
the secret to time-travel!

Or how about Justin Martyr (100-165)in "Apology"?

He said:
"Plato said to the same effect: that Rhudamanthus and
Minos would punish the wicked men when they came to them; we say that
the same thing will take place; but that the Judge will be Christ, and that their
souls will undergo an eternal punishment; and not as he said, a period of a thousand years. We believe — I would rather say —
we are fully convinced — that each will suffer
punishment by eternal fire, according to the demerit
of his actions; and that an account will be required of everyone, in proportion
to the powers which he received from God, as Christ has declared in these words,
'For unto whomsoever God has given much, of him shall the more be required.'
We Christians (in contrast to the vices attributed by the heathen to their gods)
have been taught that they only will attain to immortality, who lead holy and
virtuous lives, like God; and we believe, that all who live wickedly, and do
not repent, will be punished in eternal fire."

I guess Martyr time-traveled? Or perhaps the doctrine of eternal punishment was
always there DESPITE the attempts of Universalists to rewrite history?

Iranaeus (135-200) talked quite frequently about eternal punishment. Here are
a few quotes from him:

"That eternal fire is prepared for those who
should transgress, both the Lord openly affirmed,
and the other Scriptures prove."

And they had access to the earliest of manuscripts, so this destroys this
popular argument of Universalism! Destroys it.
(As if the Bible wasn't enough)

More from Iranaeus:

"Good things are eternal, and without end in God,
and therefore the loss of them is also eternal and never ending"

"Those who fly from the light of God . . . are
themselves the cause of their inhabiting eternal darkness,
destitute of all good things"

Theophilus of Antioch (who died somewhere between 183-185), said, "Give reverential attention to the prophetic Scriptures,
and they will make your way plainer for escaping the eternal punishments,
and obtaining the eternal prizes of God."
Hey I got it! Maybe they resurrected him in 6th century Rome and THEN sent
him back in time to spread this heretical doctrine of eternal punishment? Or
maybe Universalism is and always has been heresy?

Conclusion:

These are but a small portion of the quotes I could share which
utterly refute the idea that the early church fathers did not
subscribe to the belief in eternal punishment. How could Polycarp,
a disciple of John, had so mixed up the teachings of John, and yet
his take on eternal punishment is in line with Paul, John, and Jesus
Himself?

The Bible is clear on this subject. We have already shared many Bible
verses which clearly teach it throughout this thread and in the Battle Royale.
I pray that more Christians will become clear on it as well!

Kevin, I never said it wasn't there...I said it wasn't written into a systematic theology until the 6th century.

And eternal torment was not held to be true by everyone...that much is clear. In fact, at that time the belief in eternal torment was held by a minority.

So...lets look at this objectively. The same debate we are having now was going on back then...and back then the situation was reversed, with the majority being believers in universal salvation and the minority being believers in eternal misery.

So..in the name of equal time....here is what other Church fathers had to say....

We can set no limits to the agency of the Redeemer to redeem, to rescue, to discipline in his work, and so will he continue to operate after this life. –Clement of Alexandria

While the devil thought to kill One [Christ], he is deprived of all those cast out of hades, and he [the devil] sitting by the gates, sees all fettered beings led forth by the courage of the Saviour.--Athanasius, the Great Father of Orthodoxy

The Son "breaking in pieces" His enemies is for the sake of remolding them, as a potter his own work; as Jeremiah 18;6 says: i.e., to restore them once again to their former state. --Eusebius of Caesarea (65 to 340 A.D). Bishop of Caesarea

We think, indeed, that the goodness of God, through His Christ, may recall all His creatures to one end, even His enemies being conquered and subdued.... for Christ must reign until He has put all enemies under His feet. --Origen (185 to 254 A.D.) He founded a school at Caesarea, and is considered by historians to be one of the great theologians and exegete of the Eastern Church.

All men are Christ's, some by knowing Him, the rest not yet. He is the Savior, not of some and the rest not. For how is He Savior and Lord, if not the Savior and Lord of all?—Clement of Alexandria

The mass of men (Christians) say there is to be an end to punishment and to those who are punished.—St. Basil the Great

There are very many in our day, who though not denying the Holy Scriptures, do not believe in endless torments. -- Augustine (354-430 A.D.)

And God showed great kindness to man, in this, that He did not suffer him to continue being in sin forever; but as it were, by a kind of banishement, cast him out of paradise in order that, having punishment expiated within an appointed time, and having been disciplined, he should afterwards be recalled...just as a vessel, when one being fashioned it has some flaw, is remoulded or remade that it may become new and entire; so also it happens to man by death. For he is broken up by force, that in the resurrection he may be found whole; I mean spotless, righteous and immortal. --Theophilus of Antioch (168 A.D.)

Wherefore also he drove him out of paradise and removed him far from the tree of life, not because He envied him the tree of life, as some dare assert, but because He pitied him and desired that he should not be immortal and the evil interminable and irremediable. --Iraneaus of Lyons (182 A.D.)

These, if they will, may go Christ's way, but if not let them go their way. In another place perhaps they shall be baptized with fire, that last baptism, which is not only painful, but enduring also; which eats up, as if it were hay, all defiled matter, and consumes all vanity and vice. --Gregory of Nazianzeu, Bishop of Constantinople. (330 to 390 A.D.) Oracles 39:19


Now..isn't it interesting that many of the believers in universal reconciliation were in the positions they held in the church? Truth is, they weren't considered false teachers or heretics until much later in church history.

I guess it depends on which way you want to spin it....but seems to me they were held in high regard because of their faith...not in spite of it.

 

[Ecumenicist]

The theological school in Rome was the only one that taught endless punishment. They had abandoned the Greek scriptures and were working from a Latin translation. Once the Roman Empire made Christianity a state religion, their particular views began to be enforced...literally...and 600 years of church history began to be called heretical because they disagreed with Rome.

Could it possibly be that Rome was more interested in controlling people through
the most economical means necessary - fear - than staying true to Christ? After
al,l crucifixion proved to be inneffective as a terror technique agaisnt Christians, it
only produced martyrs.

Seems obvious that the only way to control these renegade Christians was to
actually control eternal life.

Hence, the need for the ONE TRUE CHURCH, centered in Rome. Who needs
the ecumenical council anyway? We need something easily accessible by the
state, not a bunch of willy nilly Bishops each free to interpret Scripture as the
Holy Spirit moves them. This isn't about freedom and the Holy Spirit, this is about
state control of a largely superstitious population through threatening eternal
torment.

The truth makes so much sense, to anyone willing to consider it...

 

[logos_x]

Could it possibly be that Rome was more interested in controlling people through
the most economical means necessary - fear - than staying true to Christ? After
al,l crucifixion proved to be inneffective as a terror technique agaisnt Christians, it
only produced martyrs.

Seems obvious that the only way to control these renegade Christians was to
actually control eternal life.

Hence, the need for the ONE TRUE CHURCH, centered in Rome. Who needs
the ecumenical council anyway? We need something easily accessible by the
state, not a bunch of willy nilly Bishops each free to interpret Scripture as the
Holy Spirit moves them. This isn't about freedom and the Holy Spirit, this is about
state control of a largely superstitious population through threatening eternal
torment.

The truth makes so much sense, to anyone willing to consider it...

That certainly needs to be considered. And, history bears this out.

 

[Lighthouse]

Don't be an idiot, Dave.

 

[logos_x]

Don't be an idiot, Dave.

Excellent advice...for anyone!

 

[Lighthouse]

Excellent advice...for anyone!

Maybe so. But Dave's accusation that I'm supporting the idea of purgatory and becoming Catholic is moronic. Of course, I expect no less from Dave Miller.

 

[logos_x]

Maybe so. But Dave's accusation that I'm supporting the idea of purgatory and becoming Catholic is moronic. Of course, I expect no less from Dave Miller.

Oh...so THAT'S what you were on about... :chuckle:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Maybe so. But Dave's accusation that I'm supporting the idea of purgatory and becoming Catholic is moronic. Of course, I expect no less from Dave Miller.

Purgatory = half way place for souls on their way to heaven
Regurgitory= half way place for souls on their way to lake of fire

Very similar concepts...

 

[Lighthouse]

Purgatory = half way place for souls on their way to heaven
Regurgitory= half way place for souls on their way to lake of fire

Very similar concepts...

Seeing as how purgatory is unBiblical, and what I said is Biblical, there's no similarity between them. And you're a fool.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Seeing as how purgatory is unBiblical, and what I said is Biblical, there's no similarity between them. And you're a fool.

Oh yeah! Well You're a, you're a...

Blessed child of God.

God Bless.

 

[Ecumenicist]

Not that I support the idea necessarily, and not that LH cares to learn anything about
anything but what he believes already, but Wikipedia says this:

The word Purgatory, just as the word Trinity, does not appear in the Bible, nor is the concept spelled out in detail. Scripture verses cited in support of a period of purgation after death and/or the efficacy of prayers for the dead include Dan 12:10;[5] Zech 13:9;[6] Mal 3:2-3;[7] 2 Mac 12:42-45;[8] Matthew 5:26;[9] Lk 12:47-48;[10] Lk 12:58-59;[11] 1 Cor 3:13-15;[12]; 2 Timothy 1:16-18[13] Apoc 21:27[14] and others. The extent to which these passages refer to a state of purgation remains subject to interpretation.

 

[Lighthouse]

Oh yeah! Well You're a, you're a...

Blessed child of God.

God Bless.

You wouldn't know a blessed child of God if one truthsmacked you.

 

[Lighthouse]

Not that I support the idea necessarily, and not that LH cares to learn anything about
anything but what he believes already, but Wikipedia says this:

The word Purgatory, just as the word Trinity, does not appear in the Bible, nor is the concept spelled out in detail. Scripture verses cited in support of a period of purgation after death and/or the efficacy of prayers for the dead include Dan 12:10;[5] Zech 13:9;[6] Mal 3:2-3;[7] 2 Mac 12:42-45;[8] Matthew 5:26;[9] Lk 12:47-48;[10] Lk 12:58-59;[11] 1 Cor 3:13-15;[12]; 2 Timothy 1:16-18[13] Apoc 21:27[14] and others. The extent to which these passages refer to a state of purgation remains subject to interpretation.

" Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

-Revelation 20:14
​

Hades is hell, by the way.

" For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

-1 John 5:7
​

 

[Ecumenicist]

" Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

-Revelation 20:14
​

Hades is hell, by the way.
​

Of course, that's why it says hades. Its obvious. Nothing to do with the Greek
Hades. Except its written in Greek. And called Hades.

" For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one."

-1 John 5:7
​

You definitely know what you know...