logos_x said:
If a may be so bold...I think I know the gist of what the argument is in this thread and what the major problem has been for those of us that view eternal torment as problematic...
It is that with eternal torment as a cornerstone to "the faith", the Gospel becomes so weak. It remains a powerful way to avoid punishment....but that's about it. At least that is the way it sounds.
Actually Stephen it is the other way around. It is the belief of Universalism that makes the sacrifice of Christ "watered down". It says that a person can live their life any way they like, die and go to hell, but eventually they will be let out and spend eternity in Heaven. Remember that eternity is a long time, so that even if someone spends the supposed "ages" in torment that you claim (although I know Red would strongly disagree that anyone is tormented at any time), it is a drop in the ocean compared to eternity. So people can spit on the sacrifice of God's Son in this life, and according to Universalism they don't have to worry, because one day all will be saved.
The fact is the doctrine of the eternality of the Lake of Fire IS central to the gospel. God knew mankind needed to be saved from this horrible judgment, and so He made the way out Himself. People say it is unfair for God to have given this judgment in the first place, but again remember that this was NEVER God's initial plan for humanity. He created us to love us and have a relationship with us. WE BLEW IT and thus WE deserve the punishment we receive, the same as a person who breaks the law deserves punishment for breaking that law. We are all lawbreakers who have broken God's Law!
The Gospel FAR MORE than just a way to avoid punishment. God has so powerfully changed my life, that this can hardly be said. I went from destroying my life to living for God. I live every day in anticipation of His return. I love Him and build my life around His Word, and He is in my life and I have a relationship with Him. So yes, while I was saved from the punishment I so rightly deserved, there are far more benefits even in this life. Jesus said He had come so that we might have life and have it abundantly, and this has been my experience. I have seen God do some fantastic things in my own life and in the life of others around me. So this is hardly just a way to avoid punishment and nothing more. Please acknowledge that you understand this and consider not using that argument again, because it is bogus my friend!
Logos said:
The second is that it places death in such a supreme and powerful position to undo God's ability to redeem even someones dear old grandmother who hasn't found confidence in Christ before she dies...much less some young drunk on the highway that causes an accident and kills someones teenage daughter...and by the time you get to someone like your obnoxious neighbor that you find way too difficult to love, well...the Gospel seems powerless to do much of anything.
Death is a powerful enemy Stephen. Not more powerful than God however. But people die. We all die. The Gospel doesn't stop us from physically dying. The Gospel guarantees us we won't stay dead. The gospel is hardly powerless "to do much of anything". As I said above the Gospel drastrically changes lives. Jesus Christ changes lives! I have spoken to many dear old grandmothers on their deathbeds (including my own), and I have yet to meet one who was an atheist. Did they make a decision for saving faith? I don't know. Only God knows that. The Bible tells us all be judged and judged fairly based upon their own actions in this life. Christians do not have to fear judgment if we have put on Christ and accept Him as Savior. We can have confidence in that because of the powerful truth found in God's Word!
But to your point about Death. Jesus Christ has already purchased us the victory over Death, and Death will one day be gloriously and finally defeated and cast into the Lake of Fire. That will be a great day. Isn't it ironic that the 2nd death involves Death being thrown into the Lake of Fire?
A third thing is that...in spite of the scriptural evidence that God intends to save all...that is simply an impossibility within the eternal torment plausibility structure.
It is very simple. God desires to save all, but not all will be saved. Yes there is Scriptural evidence that God would love to see all be saved, but the Bible is plain that not all will. And there is no indication whatsover that God desires Satan and the fallen angels to be saved. It is not "an impossibility within the eternal torment plausibility structure"
It is an impossibility within the stubbornness of man and the fact that we have no more chances to be saved after this life structure. (Which can be summed up as the Biblical structure)
To me...the arguments for eternal torment appears to explain away God's ability to save way to much and saps the Savior of virtually all of His ability...especially when the resurrection becomes a very dark idea for most of mankind.
It's too bad that you see it that way my friend. I hope you will someday change your perspective and realize how glorious it is that even one wicked, sinful person can be saved, even though they transgressed the laws of a righteous and Holy God, and deserve to spend eternity apart from God because of this. That God Himself paid the full penalty for their sins on the cross of Calvary. That is in fact wonderful news!
The problem with Universalism is that it underestimates the Holiness of God, and also the wickedness of sin in the sight of a Holy God.
God bless you!
