BRXII Battle talk
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bigbang123
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PastorKevin said:
i say noble but flawed work of men
Has anyone seen God?
John 1:18 "No man hath seen God at any time."
Exodus 33:20 "Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live."
I John 4:12 "No man hath seen God at any time."
VS.
Genesis 32:30 "For I have seen God face to face, and my life is preserved."
Exodus 33:11 "And the Lord spake unto Moses face to face, as a man speaketh unto his friend."
Isaiah 6:1 "In the year that king Uzziah died I saw also the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple."
Job 42:5 "I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee."
Has anyone seen Him and lived? Or not? It says both. Both statements can't be true.
just google - bible contradictions or biblical errancy
On the basis of their 'Doctrine of Inerrancy', Inerrantists attempt to provide harmonizations and explanations for all of the errors and contradictions acknowledged by more mainstream biblical scholars.
But in order to construct their harmonizations and explanations, Inerrantists rely on a highly tendentious method of interpretation. The faulty hermeneutic employed by Inerrantists may be summarized as:
1. A primary interest in finding any interpretation of a text which supports their doctrine of Inerrancy.
2. Only a secondary interest in establishing the best interpretation of the text.
As Kathleen C. Boone observes in The Bible Tells Them So: The Discourse of Protestant Fundamentalism: "This stance - any answer will do, so long as it adheres to the inerrancy principle - is frequently found in fundamentalist scholarship."
bigbang123
New member
CabinetMaker said:
you don't know - you believe
what i believe is - there is a lot i don't know
PKevman
New member
bigbang123 said:
So why dogmatically assert that the Bible is not God's Word? The heart of this debate was to get down to the bottom of the Word of God and what it has to say in regards to whether unbelievers who reject Jesus Christ spend eternity in the Lake of Fire.
If you admit there is a lot you don't know, why be so dogmatic about attacking the Bible? This is indicative not of someone who doesn't know, but whose made up their mind already.
Just showing an apparent contradiction in no way erases inerrancy, however. All supposed contradictions can be reconciled. You can also google Bible contradictions explained and find equally satisfying answers to your questions.
I encourage you to study the Bible for yourself. Take the Bible challenge and see what happens! Really dig into it with an open mind, and see if God doesn't change your mind.
God bless you bigbang. Have a good night!
Nineveh said:
Certainly
1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cr 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cr 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cr 15:15 Moreover we are even found {to be} false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cr 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Cr 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
1Cr 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cr 15:24 then {comes} the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cr 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cr 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
well you dont believe that all men will be reconciled so its not that far off the mark
What are you on about here?
Yes, hence the passage at the top of this thread which you havent read.....
Wow.....you have no rebuttal so you resort to an attempt to patronise me, a bit disapointing, I'd have expected a bit more mature debate from you....
I'm not surprised you didnt have an answer though, it's pretty difficult to claim that God would be a psycho for 'kidnapping' people and not a pyscho for throwing them into an endless pit of fire......!
dont feel sad for me though Nineveh, I believe God can actually accomplish his own will which is great!
Unfortunately it needed to be said.......and still does.....
Well if its false to believe that God can accomplish all he desires then its pretty bizarre to me......
In this life that may well be, I'm sure there are people who may blame God for bad times and the like in this life, once they have a knowledge of the truth though - be it in the next life there's no way I can see anyone choosing not to be with God,
you havent adressed this verse at all yet so there's no answer not to like, all you've done is use a completely separate quote from somewhere else, for the third time of asking please explain how this verse in question cannot mean what it says: "God is the saviour of all men especially those who believe"
I know its difficult to try and explain away the 'especially' without trying to make it into an 'only' but at least give it a try....!
bigbang123
New member
PastorKevin said:
sorry to get so far off point but life supplies us with lots of unanswered questions and mysteries and i'm always a little skeptical of dogmatic folks whether they be scientifically dogmatic or religiously dogmatic.
example
Science Frontiers: Some Anomalies and Curiosities of Nature (Paperback)
List Price: $18.95
Paperback: 350 pages
Publisher: Sourcebook Project (January 1994)
Language: English
If you have any interest in the unusual side of the physical world, you just HAVE to have this book! Dr. William Corliss has spent decades creating the "Sourcebook Project", a vast, multi-volume compilation of reports of unexplained phenomena taken from the pages of professional scientific literature. SCIENCE FRONTIERS is a sort of 'sampler,' it is the distilled cream of Dr. Corliss' bi-monthly anomalies newsletter, featuring hundreds and hundreds of illustrated mini-articles, all organized into chapters: Archeology, Astronomy, Biology, Geology, Geophysics, Psychology, Chemistry, Physics, Math, Esoterica. Lewis Thomas said: "We do not understand much of anything, from the "big bang," all the way down to the particles in the atoms of a bacterial cell. We have a wilderness of mystery to make our way through in the centuries ahead." This book is an excellent demonstration of the wisdom in those words.
----------
this is why i have no problem saying that there is a LOT i don't know.
since this is so far off topic - this is the last thing i will say about the matter in this thread
Nineveh
Merely Christian
red77 said:Certainly
1Cr 15:12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?
1Cr 15:13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cr 15:14 and if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
1Cr 15:15 Moreover we are even found {to be} false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He raised Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
1Cr 15:16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
1Cr 15:17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins.
1Cr 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
1Cr 15:19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are of all men most to be pitied.
1Cr 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who are asleep.
1Cr 15:21 For since by a man {came} death, by a man also {came} the resurrection of the dead.
1Cr 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive.
1Cr 15:23 But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, after that those who are Christ's at His coming,
1Cr 15:24 then {comes} the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.
1Cr 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet.
1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death.
1Cr 15:27 For HE HAS PUT ALL THINGS IN SUBJECTION UNDER HIS FEET. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him.
1Cr 15:28 When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.
1Cr 15:29 Otherwise, what will those do who are baptized for the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why then are they baptized for them?
"i believe Paul also says that if it's only in this life we have hope then we are of all men to be most pitied,"
Um... nope. Appears you yanked that one verse where Paul is speaking about the reality of Christ and tried to build your doctrine on it. Try keeping all of those verses together it will give you some context, not a doctrine of universalism.
It's far and away across the land and sea from what you really want me to be saying.
I was just playing along with your silliness routine, like it?
Rather, it doesn't even come close to what you want it to be saying.
"Now if Christ is preached that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? But if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, then our preaching is empty and your faith is also empty. Yes, and we are found false witnesses of God, because we have testified of God that He raised up Christ, whom He did not raise up—if in fact the dead do not rise. For if the dead do not rise, then Christ is not risen. And if Christ is not risen, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins! Then also those who have fallen asleep in Christ have perished. If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men the most pitiable."
Isn't saying, "i believe Paul also says that if it's only in this life we have hope then we are of all men to be most pitied,". It really does help to keep things in context. Or else we wind up with wacky theology, sort of like what Paul was correcting with the Corinthians to begin with. Paul is correcting the Corinthian believers about our resurrection, nowhere can we make the case Paul is alluding to unrepentant folks coming to Christ after they die.
Rather... you have no sight.
You bet! and you know what they say about pointing fingers
And this is in reply to offering false hope to unrepentant sinners? Tell me... if you are able... how would you feel, if after you died, you found out you were wrong and all of those people you champion right now in unrepentant homosexuality wound up in the eternal lake of fire? Would you at least feel badly you played a part in their afterlife?
Doesn't really matter how you feel about it now does it? After all Lucifer was in God's presence and chose to leave. If angels have the free will to be apart from God, what makes you so sure us mere mortals don't? And while you continue to be baffled by the desires of human beings, like it or not, some hate God. That's their choice to make, not yours. As I said before, the best you could do is offer the Gospel of Grace to them, but being a universalist, there really isn't any need, is there?
Like most other things you choose to ignore, it's there, you just didn't want to see it.
Have a Merry Christmas
Nineveh said:
Hardly one verse Nineveh, one of very many....
how....? You believe that all men will not be reconciled to God, that many many people will be lost and tormented in fire for ever, does that not about sum it up?
I was just playing along with your silliness routine, like it?
Not really, you were just evading the points
It says what it says....if it was just this life in which we have hope then hope is lost....and again this verse isnt one on its own, God is the saviour of all men especially of believers for example - that verse which is really giving you great difficulty to explain away.....
Rather......you have no answer.....again Its Another typical sidestep from you Nineveh and its becoming a habit....you cant answer so you do this, its so see through and we both know it, if you had an argument you would be able to explain to me how it is that God 'kidnapping' people would make him a psycho but throwing people into a fiery pit would not.....can you explain...? or should I just expect another evasive manoeveure from you?
You bet! and you know what they say about pointing fingers
I know what they say about casting stones.....
If eternal destiny rests upon the shoulders of human beings then hope is gone quite frankly, its yet another reason to despise the doctrine of ET, I believe God to be a much fairer judge than that......if it turned out that the bigotry and hateful remarks had turned many away from Christianity would you feel guilty of the role you played in their afterlife? In your doctrine it cuts both ways.....
Like I say i believe that all men once they come to the truth will willingly be with God, and if sharing the gospel brings hope amidst the misery thats so rampant in this life then no Nineveh - I guess there really isnt any need...... :doh:
Like most other things you choose to ignore, it's there, you just didn't want to see it.
Have a Merry Christmas
It doesnt work Nineveh, three times now and you cant even address the verse, i've asked you specifically to address the verse in question and explain to me how God cannot be the saviour of all men especially of believers - not to pull another verse from somewhere and say they both say the same thing, again - thats not what i asked you for, is it that difficult to address this verse? You've not remotely answered this at all so there's still nothing to ignore Nineveh, who would have thought this specific verse would be so difficult for you to answer....? :think: Well......i guess it is really, its why I asked you to explain it in the first place and seemingly you cant......
A merry Christmas to you too
Sola Scriptora
New member
Early on this thread, somewhere, a Universalist said:
God knew there would be evil. He planned it. He wanted to be our Saviour, our healer, our deliverer, our refuge. He could have been none of those things without evil. But evil and sin will be totally done away with. ET can't admit God planned it, because they have to hold on to hell. Hell keeps them running in circles
No, you are totally wrong, as your doctrine will always cause you to be. The Lord DID NOT plan "evil" in this world. You are guilty of BLASPHEMY. He did not NEED to plan these things so he could show how great and wonderful he is! Such thinking is warped and again, BLASPHEMY. It is NOT our Biblical and obedient clinging to the doctrine of Eternal Hell that "causes" us to not be able to "admit" Goid "planned" evil, for He DID NOT, but the Bible itself that CAUSES US to RISE UP against such a blasphemy that your warped doctrine of Devils requires--that God was the author of all sin and evil in this world, so He could then come in and "save the day", like a pretend "hero". You make a MOCKERY of man's fall, the pain of sin against God, the grief it causes Him, His haterd of it and not wanting ANYONE TO EVER SIN, and of the Salvation and Redemption Christ Jesus paid for us. Your doctrine attacks the nature of God in every way, and the Salvation He has provided, and it makes a mockery of Justice.
God knew there would be evil. He planned it. He wanted to be our Saviour, our healer, our deliverer, our refuge. He could have been none of those things without evil. But evil and sin will be totally done away with. ET can't admit God planned it, because they have to hold on to hell. Hell keeps them running in circles
No, you are totally wrong, as your doctrine will always cause you to be. The Lord DID NOT plan "evil" in this world. You are guilty of BLASPHEMY. He did not NEED to plan these things so he could show how great and wonderful he is! Such thinking is warped and again, BLASPHEMY. It is NOT our Biblical and obedient clinging to the doctrine of Eternal Hell that "causes" us to not be able to "admit" Goid "planned" evil, for He DID NOT, but the Bible itself that CAUSES US to RISE UP against such a blasphemy that your warped doctrine of Devils requires--that God was the author of all sin and evil in this world, so He could then come in and "save the day", like a pretend "hero". You make a MOCKERY of man's fall, the pain of sin against God, the grief it causes Him, His haterd of it and not wanting ANYONE TO EVER SIN, and of the Salvation and Redemption Christ Jesus paid for us. Your doctrine attacks the nature of God in every way, and the Salvation He has provided, and it makes a mockery of Justice.
Sola Scriptora said:
Universalism doesnt make a mockery of anything, nor does it take sin or its consequences lightly either, this rant about it attacking the nature of God doesnt even make sense, if God wills all to come to a knowledge of the truth and Jesus died as a ransom for all men - how is it "attacking" the nature of God to believe that he accomplishes both his mission and his will? If anything makes a mockery out of justice its the belief that billions of lost souls will suffer agonising pointless suffering for no reason whatsoever.......
Red, you keep missing it. There IS a reason. The reason is not sin under the law, the reason is telling God, "I don't need you." Isn't telling God I don't need you a prettey big reason?red77 said:
icilian fenner
New member
CabinetMaker said:
would you concede that this appears on the surface rather vindictive, or can you phrase it in such a way as to explain how it is just?
Aimiel
Well-known member
They lean on their own understanding, they don't acknowledge God in any way, shape or form; they have set their own intellect upon the throne, and they worship that which they have 'created' which is their own image and likeness, and not The One True God.CabinetMaker said:
For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith. For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
CabinetMaker said:
And you keep missing it back CM, eternal torment serves no purpose, what good is there in torturing billions of people who didnt make the right choice in a short life? What good does it serve? what practical purpose? There isnt one, God knows that people arent going to make all the right decisions in this life hence Jesus's answer to the disciples about all things being possible with God about this very thing, what makes more sense, A God who is love who fulfills his own will or a God who is 'love' who cant accomplish his will and subjects people to unimaginable torment for no purpose at all other than to cause untold pain and agony.....?
What makes sense? A God who says what He means and means what He says. A God you can count on. God has said that when our earthly existance is over there are one of two places you can end up, an nice place and a not nice place. He has plainly stated how to pick the one you will go to.red77 said:
No consider this about inversalism. You claim that some body goes to hell for one age-during. There is nothing in the Bible that implies that any body who goes to hell will get out before thier one age-during is complete. Nor is there anything in the Bible that says what happens after that age-during.
Aimiel
Well-known member
Christians don't 'embrace' eternal torment, we are the ones who oppose it. Those who embrace it will tell you that no one is sent there, or, in other words: "You shall not surely die," the first lie, re-packaged, that is embracing Satan and passing out free tickets to hell. We simply take God's Word at face-value, as He meant for It to be taken.
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