BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

Did they have something to say about the eternity of the lake?

The prophet I'm talking about is Kim Clement. He talks about all sorts of things -- lots about the harsh judgment of God coming, but also about things "doubling" for folks. (You know, Christians getting doubled possessions, doubled finances, doubled fruit of the womb). AND you can become an Executive Platinum Warrior if you send him $500 a month!

 

[PKevman]

That's the only scripture you got, Lazarus in the flames. But Lazarus cried out to Abraham,
not Christ. When Christ released the prisoners, Lazarus was among them.

Wow Dave! I don't mean to be rude, but you repeatedly show your lack of knowledge of Scripture. Are you certain it was Lazarus in the flames crying out to Abraham?

 

[PKevman]

Hebrews 10:26-29 (New International Version)
26If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace?

no sacrifice for sins is left - Jesus paid the full price for sin under the law of Moses. If there is no sacrifice left there is no penance left so...

only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire - The words were chosen carfully so that people would no that the fire is not the refiners fire, it is a raging fire. But why?

How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot - And this is why Universalism is false. It allows people to spend there lives trampling Jesus underfoot, treating His spilled blood as an unholy thing, and still allows them into Heaven. God says no to this.

Excellent post CM! :up:

 

[PKevman]

If God (and Balder) allows, I would not stand between Balder and God as mediator, but by
Balder's side as a friend.

On your behalf, however, I continue and pray that one day you might recognize God's Grace
in its unlimited fullness and wonder and joy.

Dave you expose yourself again. Here you are standing in support of pagan who denies Jesus Christ. You go so far as to say that you would stand by Balder's side before God, and yet you condemn Nineveh, A CHRISTIAN, and say you "pray" that she would recognize God's grace?

False teacher!

 

[Aimiel]

That's the only scripture you got, Lazarus in the flames. But Lazarus cried out to Abraham,
not Christ. When Christ released the prisoners, Lazarus was among them.

The rich man in the flames isn't the only picture of eternal torment that we're given, although if it were, it should certainly be enough of a warning. In Revelation the torment of those in flames is described as eternal, and the warnings are again very stern. Someone who actually comes to know The Lord learns of His Judgement and Severity, as well as His Grace. If you don't, then you just don't know The Lord. You should meet Him someday. I pray it happens before you die without having done so.

 

[Nineveh]

The prophet I'm talking about is Kim Clement. He talks about all sorts of things -- lots about the harsh judgment of God coming, but also about things "doubling" for folks. (You know, Christians getting doubled possessions, doubled finances, doubled fruit of the womb). AND you can become an Executive Platinum Warrior if you send him $500 a month!

...and?

Are you incapable of comparing what this person says with Scriptures or something?

Would you like to get back to the topic?

 

[Nineveh]

Dave,
Intersting idea...

The rich man cried out to Abraham, not Christ. Abraham is no more than a mere mortal, Abraham couldn't help him. But Abraham was the only one who could hear and respond to him. Such is the gulf they could not cross.

"When Christ released the prisoners, Lazarus was among them." Surely, as he was with Abraham in Abraham's bosom, but could you crack open a Bible ( I promise it won't singe your fingers) and give a verse or two that indicates the hell side of sheol was emptied? All I know of is the promise of demons remaining chained in hell until judgement.

 

[Aimiel]

All I know of is the promise of demons remaining chained in hell until judgement.

Don't forget the part about all liars having their place in hell, and hell and the grave giving up their dead, so that whosoever's name isn't found written in The Lamb's Book of Life gets cast into the Lake of Fire, where the smoke of their torment will ascend forever... and how can you have smoke which comes from torment ascending forever without that torment continuing forever? You can't!!!

 

[Nineveh]

Don't forget the part about all liars having their place in hell, and hell and the grave giving up their dead, so that whosoever's name isn't found written in The Lamb's Book of Life gets cast into the Lake of Fire, where the smoke of their torment will ascend forever... and how can you have smoke which comes from torment ascending forever without that torment continuing forever? You can't!!!

: sarcasm :

But Aimiel! It's not forever! You know that... it's age-during.

: /sarcasm :

You know? God is really specific on time frames. Like the 6 days of creation, the day of rest, how many years from the temple to the birth of Christ, how long satan gets control, even how long silence in heaven will be, yet this "purgatory" time of the lake is "age-during". Odd, huh?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave you expose yourself again. Here you are standing in support of pagan who denies Jesus Christ. You go so far as to say that you would stand by Balder's side before God, and yet you condemn Nineveh, A CHRISTIAN, and say you "pray" that she would recognize God's grace?

False teacher!

So now praying for someone is equivalent to condemning them? I guarantee I don't
pray that anyone be condemned in any fashion, I pray for God to reveal God's healing
Grace. And the fruits of that Revelation are love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness,
faithfulness, and self control.

I pray this for all people, yourself and Balder included.

 

[Aimiel]

You know? God is really specific on time frames. Like the 6 days of creation, the day of rest, how many years from the temple to the birth of Christ, how long satan gets control, even how long silence in heaven will be, yet this "purgatory" time of the lake is "age-during". Odd, huh?

Very. I also think it is funny how even their own 'definition' of that word still seems to say forever: age-during. It sounds like it means enduring for ages and ages (as in: forever). Aren't ages an un-defined period of time thought to be 1,000 years, or possibly longer?

 

[Ecumenicist]

Dave,
Intersting idea...

The rich man cried out to Abraham, not Christ. Abraham is no more than a mere mortal, Abraham couldn't help him. But Abraham was the only one who could hear and respond to him. Such is the gulf they could not cross.

"When Christ released the prisoners, Lazarus was among them." Surely, as he was with Abraham in Abraham's bosom, but could you crack open a Bible ( I promise it won't singe your fingers) and give a verse or two that indicates the hell side of sheol was emptied? All I know of is the promise of demons remaining chained in hell until judgement.

Actually, I'd like to know how you have come up with this sequence of events scripturally, i.e.
hell filled, hell emptied, demons chained, lake of fire. Also, if you could illuminate me on
which hell is which in your eyes, i.e gehenna vs hades vs shoel.

Is it death to shoel, shoel to gahenna, and gahenna to judgement, judgement to chains, and
chains to the lake of fire? And where in the sequence does Christ unchain the prisoners?

thanx,

Dave Miller

 

[Nineveh]

Very. I also think it is funny how even their own 'definition' of that word still seems to say forever: age-during. It sounds like it means enduring for ages and ages (as in: forever).

Either that or the age during eternity... ie: forever.

Aren't ages an un-defined period of time thought to be 1,000 years, or possibly longer?

It seems an "age" is defined by something. An example: the age of Grace. Or the Bronze Age. There will be an age of eternity.

 

[Nineveh]

Actually, I'd like to know how you have come up with this sequence of events scripturally, i.e. hell filled, hell emptied, demons chained, lake of fire. Also, if you could illuminate me on which hell is which in your eyes, i.e gehenna vs hades vs shoel.

Do you know the differences in all of this? Or are you being lazy again?

Is it death to shoel, shoel to gahenna, and gahenna to judgement, judgement to chains, and chains to the lake of fire? And where in the sequence does Christ unchain the prisoners?

Are there bound entities? If so, who are they? Where are they? Why are they bound? Who tells us about this?

 

[Aimiel]

Either that or the age during eternity... ie: forever.

It seems an "age" is defined by something. An example: the age of Grace. Or the Bronze Age. There will be an age of eternity.

That's a long time to be tormented day and night by flames. :nono:

 

[Ecumenicist]

Do you know the differences in all of this? Or are you being lazy again?

Just want to know your interpretation and where you get it from. I'm genuinely curious, not
interested in throwing stones at your interpretation. ET is post apocalyptic, I'm looking
for your understanding of pre-apocalyptic events.

Are there bound entities? If so, who are they? Where are they? Why are they bound? Who tells us about this?

You tell me, I asked.

Be well,

Dave

 

[Nineveh]

Just want to know your interpretation and where you get it from.

As I thought, you don't know where to look. Why not find it and read the whole book surrounding it? Then we will have something to discuss.

I'm genuinely curious, not interested in throwing stones at your interpretation.

Well you could try, but you don't even know what you are talking about yet.

ET is post apocalyptic, I'm looking for your understanding of pre-apocalyptic events.

What are you defining as "apocalypse"?

You tell me, I asked.

No, dave. I'm not going to do your homework. See, what happens is I spend hours looking up references and making an argument then I get one of two responses: You disappear, or you reply with breath taking ignorance. Why? Because you don't know the Bible. Not too many pages back you couldn't even be bothered to look up if and/or what Paul had to say on a basic question of Christianity. It's your MO.

If you are serious about having this discussion, you'll get a grip on the material first.

 

[freelight]

Love triumphs...............

Love triumphs...............

Hello all,

I hardly come into these quarters and post mostly in the 'Religion' section, but wanted to look into logos_x and PK's debate. Logos_x and I agree in many respects with logics in universal salvation although his premise is more specifically within a biblical-context, while mine explores logics from more spiritualist/metaphysical dimensions not confined only to one religious culture or tradition.

Many against universalism only have their passages to support their views, being literalized into a crystallized dogma with no other possible interpretations. They have to fall back on these passages to prove their 'belief' in ECT(eternal conscious torment).

I have proposed one first consider 'God' and his divine and eternal Nature/Character/Constitution and then build a proper theology therefrom, instead of exalting a few translations above the divine Character that is contrary to the divine constitution. Putting the letter above the Spirit of Truth is indefensible and such can only result in a retardation or distortion of Gods ministration of justice and mercy, thru the mediation of his perfect, eternal Love and Wisdom.

I uphold the Ultimacy of Love and the Triumph of divine Will.

Is Gods Love Infinite?
Is Gods Omnihood All-pervading? Is the Supreme Will that upholds the very fabric of Existence held in the divine Providence of the All-mighty? Is Gods Eternal Mercy greater than the temporality of finite, mortal sin? What is finite cannot squelch, extinguish what is INFINITE.

Since God is Love and his ministrations concerning the welfare of his offspring are mediated with perfect justice and mercy, thru the motive of His Supreme Will, which is inspired by Infinite Love.....sin and its consequences or durations of punishments cannot be imposed for all time and eternity with no remedy or hope,....for the very Law of Progress and the purpose of a souls existence would be annulled, and God who is Life itself cannot cancell his own Law or the purpose of the soul's existence which must go on to fulfill its reason for being.

Infinite Love/Wisdom could never condemn/confine its offspring to an everlasting state of unescapable torment forever as this is wholly contrary to logic, reason and justice, and is contrary to the Law of progress. As long as the soul exists...the Infinitude and opportunity of Love exists to rescue, uplift, save and guide one to greater light and eventual return to harmony with its Paternal Source.

The laws of compensation(sowing & reaping/action-reaction/karma) are ever mediated for souls and all bear the consequences for their sin, as well as the benefits of their adherence to natural and divine law. Souls therefore make for themselves their 'heaven' or 'hell' by their own souls thoughts and actions as the law of compensation affords. However, Gods Love and grace are ever abundant and accessible to draw the prodigal sons home....even if their seasons of sin seem to endure for eons....the Eternal Father still waits for those ones to come to their senses - these will awaken in due time after the penalties and sufferings of their sin becomes no longer tolerable...and they turn Godward in repentance...willing to make amends.

Souls burning forever in a lake of fire as imposed by a God of eternal wrath who have no hope of remedy or salvation forever and ever is an atrocity and affront to the God of justice and reason. These fantastical images gleaned from literalizing interpretations of so called scripture...when their conclusions are contrary to the constitution of Gods character are unacceptable - therefore we would always be true to God first...and interpret all things accordingly thru the eternal verities of Gods Nature whose justice and mercy is Supreme, not thru a literal interpretation of figurative words that demean that very character.

Therefore I am with logos_x on this front, but include other logics for the continued support of employing these faculties(reason, logic, intelligence, consistency, etc.) towards the recognition of Love ultimately triumphing in the Restoration of all things in God/Christ.


paul

 

[Ecumenicist]

As I thought, you don't know where to look. Why not find it and read the whole book surrounding it? Then we will have something to discuss.

Well you could try, but you don't even know what you are talking about yet.

What are you defining as "apocalypse"?

No, dave. I'm not going to do your homework. See, what happens is I spend hours looking up references and making an argument then I get one of two responses: You disappear, or you reply with breath taking ignorance. Why? Because you don't know the Bible. Not too many pages back you couldn't even be bothered to look up if and/or what Paul had to say on a basic question of Christianity. It's your MO.

If you are serious about having this discussion, you'll get a grip on the material first.

"The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat." I thought you were interested in a civil conversation
for a moment there, my mistake. never mind...

 

[Aimiel]

Many against universalism only have their passages to support their views, being literalized into a crystallized dogma with no other possible interpretations. They have to fall back on these passages to prove their 'belief' in ECT(eternal conscious torment).

To those who find them, The Lord's Words are Life and Spirit. Not only do His Words support ECT, but they are the only source that we have for many truths which are incontrovertible.

Putting the letter above the Spirit of Truth is indefensible and such can only result in a retardation or distortion of Gods ministration of justice and mercy, thru the mediation of his perfect, eternal Love and Wisdom.

Actually, God designed His Word so that we might be able to us It to determine truth far better than we might be able to otherwise. Without it, we'd certainly have muddied up His Purposes kind of like playing a game of 'telephone.'

Souls burning forever in a lake of fire...

Is exactly what Jesus described very sternly warning us to fear Him Who has The Power to cast one into such torments. The only time that He mentioned that we should fear.

Therefore I am with logos_x on this front, but include other logics for the continued support of employing these faculties(reason, logic, intelligence, consistency, etc.) towards the recognition of Love ultimately triumphing in the Restoration of all things in God/Christ.

So God is under the control of your reasoning, logic and intelligence? He has to answer to you?

No. He is God. He doesn't think like us. His Ways are higher than ours. His Thoughts are higher than ours. His Judgement is Supreme. We simply don't have enough information (much less ability or permission) to be able to judge God or find fault with His Ways / Thoughts / Judgements.