BRXII Battle talk

[Balder]

I can't believe how dense people can be. Even though they believe God creates a place of eternal torture and plans to use it, they say, "It was never his intent." Never? Then why is he planning something he "never" intends?

 

[red77]

I can't believe how dense people can be. Even though they believe God creates a place of eternal torture and plans to use it, they say, "It was never his intent." Never? Then why is he planning something he "never" intends?

It is a paradox isnt it?

 

[Aimiel]

I can't believe how dense people can be. Even though they believe God creates a place of eternal torture and plans to use it, they say, "It was never his intent." Never? Then why is he planning something he "never" intends?

Does the police officer who kills an assailant that attacks him with a gun come to work in the morning 'intent' on killing a criminal? Doesn't psychological testing weed out such nut-cases before they can even get to the Police Academy? Don't you think that God is beyond such simplistic criminal desires? If not, then I have no interest in Him. He wants every man to be saved. Not every man will.

 

[Balder]

God has a choice in how he handles the "unsaved." He doesn't HAVE to burn them alive forever. Does he?

 

[red77]

Does the police officer who kills an assailant that attacks him with a gun come to work in the morning 'intent' on killing a criminal? Doesn't psychological testing weed out such nut-cases before they can even get to the Police Academy? Don't you think that God is beyond such simplistic criminal desires? If not, then I have no interest in Him. He wants every man to be saved. Not every man will.

Oh come off it Aimiel, we're talking about God here - not a human being who has no knowledge of future events....

 

[Aimiel]

God has a choice in how he handles the "unsaved." He doesn't HAVE to burn them alive forever. Does he?

Not knowing the limitations or thoughts of The Almighty, and certainly not presuming to be capable of judging Him even if I did, I'll have to say, "I don't know." I believe that He cannot violate His Character, which, I believe to be the highest law of all. God is beyond reproach, in spite of what you might make of Him after your shallow assessment of His Word.

 

[Aimiel]

Oh come off it Aimiel, we're talking about God here - not a human being who has no knowledge of future events...

I believe that God knows every single thing that will ever happen, but that doesn't mean that He is to blame for what does happen. I believe that He created 'agents' of free will. Just because He knows every decision that they will ever make doesn't make Him culpable for their choices. It merely makes Him The Author of Pure Freedom. If you didn't have the choice of rejecting Him, would you truly be free? I think not.

 

[logos_x]

I believe that He cannot violate His Character...

Well...that is exactly why we are having this dialog.

God cannot violate His character...yet the Doctrine of eternal torment has Him behaving like the rich man in the parable FOREVER...refusing to save or even mitigate the suffering of those outside.

By making it an eternal and unresolvable situation, the doctrine of eternal torment gives God NO CHOICE but to cast off forever those that are unbelievers...and even keep them alive in their miserable condition or resurrecting them to force an eternal misery upon them.

Is THAT in God's character? Is it a "shallow assessment" to suspect it probably isn't?

 

[Aimiel]

Is THAT in God's character? Is it a "shallow assessment" to suspect it probably isn't?

Very shallow. It isn't God's Character that is on trial, but man's ability to read and understand His Word. Obviously your ability is lacking a great deal.

 

[logos_x]

Very shallow. It isn't God's Character that is on trial, but man's ability to read and understand His Word. Obviously your ability is lacking a great deal.

On the contrary...God's character is definitely on trial here.

As for my ability to read and understand God's word...with all due respect, it is decidedly much better than your's, and you are in no position to judge.

 

[Aimiel]

On the contrary...God's character is definitely on trial here.

Good luck with that. It seems that your presumption has led you down this horribly confused bunny-trail, from which it seems you're not able to escape. You're in a prison of your own making. All you ever do is talk about the heretical nonsense that you've read by your 'heap' of teachers, relating to universalism, your new god. You should see yourself. Every thread you ever post on always ends up with the same slant. You try to steer the conversation to your god.

As for my ability to read and understand God's word... with all due respect, it is decidedly much better than your's, and you are in no position to judge.

No, it is absurdly slacking, and I don't judge you guilty of heresy alone. God called you that long before I ever saw the first post of yours that I ever read, I just agree with Him. :loser:

 

[logos_x]

Good luck with that. It seems that your presumption has led you down this horribly confused bunny-trail, from which it seems you're not able to escape. You're in a prison of your own making. All you ever do is talk about the heretical nonsense that you've read by your 'heap' of teachers, relating to universalism, your new god. You should see yourself. Every thread you ever post on always ends up with the same slant. You try to steer the conversation to your god.No, it is absurdly slacking, and I don't judge you guilty of heresy alone. God called you that long before I ever saw the first post of yours that I ever read, I just agree with Him. :loser:

You and your heap o' teachers can go take a flying leap for all I care. :loser:

 

[logos_x]

I repeat...since Aimiel seems to want to kill the messenger rather than think about the message...

God cannot violate His character...yet the Doctrine of eternal torment has Him behaving like the rich man in the parable FOREVER...refusing to save or even mitigate the suffering of those outside.

By making it an eternal and unresolvable situation, the doctrine of eternal torment gives God NO CHOICE but to cast off forever those that are unbelievers...and even keep them alive in their miserable condition or resurrecting them to force an eternal misery upon them.

Is THAT in God's character? Is it a "shallow assessment" to suspect it probably isn't?

 

[Balder]

Aimiel talks about being rightly discerning and then follows a prophet who is questionable at best, and disturbing at worst. Claiming to speak for God and ranting about cutting people's heads off....

 

[logos_x]

Aimiel talks about being rightly discerning and then follows a prophet who is questionable at best, and disturbing at worst. Claiming to speak for God and ranting about cutting people's heads off....

Easy to see through his rhetoric.

 

[PKevman]

I can't believe how dense people can be. Even though they believe God creates a place of eternal torture and plans to use it, they say, "It was never his intent." Never? Then why is he planning something he "never" intends?

The answer is simple: He didn't create it until there was sin when Satan and the fallen angels rebelled. FURTHER, it wasn't INTENDED for man. Haven't we already pointed this out a zillion times? Man sinned and earned his own place there. God did not intend at all for a single man to spend eternity in the Lake of Fire. THEN when MAN blew it, GOD did everything to GIVE US THE OPPORTUNITY to NOT go there. He sent His precious SON JESUS CHRIST, born of a virgin, to die a death on a cross that He DID NOT deserve. God made a way out. We can choose to accept His way out, or we can choose to REJECT His way out. Either way if a person chooses to reject God's way out he has nobody to blame but himself. Period.

Please acknowledge that you have read and understand this and whether or not you agree with it, you will stop using the faulty argument from above.

Thanks.

 

[Balder]

Kevin, I understand the scenario as you describe it. From my perspective as a Buddhist, it doesn't matter if God didn't intend to use it for humans when he first made the Lake of Fire. The fact that he planned to use it -- an eternal torture chamber -- on any sentient beings at all, is morally problematic. Beyond this, he is still planning to use it for human beings now, so saying "he never intended to use it this way" is not really accurate, since he is supposedly intending to use it now, still well before the fact (e.g., Judgment Day). It's not as if he has no choice, is it? That he is compelled to choose this one particular fate for unbelievers, out of any number of possible scenarios?

 

[koban]

Kevin, I understand the scenario as you describe it. From my perspective as a Buddhist, it doesn't matter if God didn't intend to use it for humans when he first made the Lake of Fire. The fact that he planned to use it -- an eternal torture chamber -- on any sentient beings at all, is morally problematic. Beyond this, he is still planning to use it for human beings now, so saying "he never intended to use it this way" is not really accurate, since he is supposedly intending to use it now, still well before the fact (e.g., Judgment Day). It's not as if he has no choice, is it? That he is compelled to choose this one particular fate for unbelievers, out of any number of possible scenarios?

Balder, forgive me if this is covered ground, but does not Buddhism recognize the equivalent of yin and yang?

 

[Balder]

Balder, forgive me if this is covered ground, but does not Buddhism recognize the equivalent of yin and yang?

Yin and yang is a Taoist concept. However, the yin-yang symbol indicates that the opposites contain the seeds of each other, and the circular form indicates constant flux and motion, meaning impermanence, change, transformation. So, there is no notion of an eternal hell (or an eternal heaven, for that matter). From both Buddhist and Taoist perspectives, salvation is beyond both of them.

 

[Nineveh]

The story of Christ's kenotic agape is beautiful and moving. The fact that this sacrifice, according to many Christians, is set in a "larger" story, in which God plans to resurrect people into new bodies and toss them alive into a fire like so much trash, where they'll suffer and scream forever, is what I object to.

Balder, in all of your "inclusiveness" you need to come to grips with the God of the Bible, you can reject Him all you like, but that doesn't make Him go away.