Theology Club: Blinding of Israel

[Arial]

Yep, our playbook is the Bible. Please try it. It's so much better than your imagination.

I have been taking a look into MAD, something that previously I had taken no interest in as it was, to me, simply a different view of the same thing and did not affect salvation. But on this forum I began to dislike it simply because of the contemptuous treatment that members give to those who disagree, and the intense singular focus on certain aspects of it. Now I know you will say no one treated anyone with contempt, least of all you. But contempt really is in the eye of the one receiving it and I also realize that humankind has a supreme desire to justify and deny whatever wrong they do. And yes, I know too that you will throw that back at me as though it does not apply to you at all but only those who don't agree with MAD. In anycase, a great disservice to your cause has been done simply by the behaviors that have come forth.

So I began looking into it from all angles---pro and con---to see where these strange (to me) ideas come from. In doing so I came across the Grace Ambassadors website. Within this was a list of five most common responses to MAD. And by clicking on those, the scriptures to combat these negative responses. Guess what: the same few scriptures repeated on here by every MAD adherent are the same ones repeated, and repeatedly, as a counter to the negatives. That is a play book. Not to mention that the scriptures used are not interpreted in the same way by MAD as traditional Christianity or common sense interpret them. So saying your playbook is the Bible is useless. I could say the same, yet I disagree with you on many things. Except I only need the Bible to explain why I believe what I believe, not deliberately formated instructions of specific issues, known to be controversial with in a sect. Which btw, you will find also with Morrmen and JH etc. Not saying MAD is a cult or unChristian, just saying in order to convince people of its "rightness" it is forced to do the same. Provide ready answers to the questions that are certain to arise.

 

[Arial]

I will make you a great nation; I will bless you And make your name great; And you shall be a blessing.I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed.” - Genesis 12:2-3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis12:2-3&version=NKJV

And so they have been---through Jesus, a descendant of Abraham. I do not see where that says God telling Israel they are to be the spokes nation to the world.

In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.” - Genesis 22:18 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis22:18&version=NKJV

And so they have been, through Jesus a descendant of Abraham. Gal 3:5-9. It has nothing to do with Israel intended to be a spokesnation to the world in the sense that you apparently mean that. As though because Israel failed, God had to change His plans and redeem the Gentiles first, as well as believing Jews, and then later deal with Israel all over again with a salvation by faith plus works.

And another:
“As for Me,” says the Lord, “this is My covenant with them: My Spirit who is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth, shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your descendants, nor from the mouth of your descendants’ descendants,” says the Lord , “from this time and forevermore.” - Isaiah 59:21 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah59:21&version=NKJV
The Gentiles shall come to your light, And kings to the brightness of your rising. - Isaiah 60:3 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Isaiah60:3&version=NKJV

Yes, and He did and He has. So where is that saying Israel is the intended to be the spokes nation to the world. Redemption came to the world through Israel. Just as God planned and purposed to do. Jesus is the spokesperson to all the nations.

 

[Tambora]

Now you're lying or ignorant.

Or you are.

The saved today are saved by the same MEANS as Abraham was, on God's end, but not the same CONTENT on our end. If you don't know the difference between the two, you have no business hear preaching at others.

Calvin loved to use that tactic on others.

 

[Right Divider]

Yes, and He did and He has. So where is that saying Israel is the intended to be the spokes nation to the world. Redemption came to the world through Israel. Just as God planned and purposed to do. Jesus is the spokesperson to all the nations.

The body of Christ receives its redemption apart from Israel.

Rom 11:11 (KJV)
(11:11) I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but [rather] through their fall salvation [is come] unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.

I've tried to explain this before, but you're too stubborn to even listen.

 

[Tambora]

Abraham did not have faith in the death, burial, and resurrection of Jesus Christ in order to be saved.

By that logic no one before Christ died did.
That's generations and generations of mankind that died without any hope of salvation.

The fact that Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness did not stop Him from being required to perform works. Nor did it mean he wouldn't be required to wait until the times of refreshing to have his sins blotted out.

Your version of d'ism suggests that any man can die and still be able to believe after that.

 

[Right Divider]

By that logic no one before Christ died did.
That's generations and generations of mankind that died without any hope of salvation.

They had hope, they just did not have details.

1Pet 1:3-12 (KJV)
(1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (1:6) Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: (1:7) That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ: (1:8) Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see [him] not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory: (1:9) Receiving the end of your faith, [even] the salvation of [your] souls. (1:10) Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: (1:11) Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. (1:12) Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

 

[Tambora]

They had hope, the just did not have details.

Again, this version of d'ism says one that has already died can be saved after their death by getting details at some later time.

 

[Right Divider]

Again, this version of d'ism says one that has already died can be saved after their death by getting details at some later time.

I don't think so. Trusting the Lord is always required, even when the Lord does not give all future details.

 

[Tambora]

I don't think so. Trusting the Lord is always required, even when the Lord does not give all future details.

Then your viewpoint would have Glorydaz be wrong for saying Abe didn't have the details required to be saved before he died.

 

[Arial]

The body of Christ receives its redemption apart from Israel.

I've tried to explain this before, but you're too stubborn to even listen.

That is dividing the redemption---not rightly dividing the word of God.

I listened. I found your interpretation of the scripture to not be validated by what we see in scripture.

 

[Right Divider]

That is dividing the redemption---not rightly dividing the word of God.

There different "redemption's" in the Bible. You try to force everything to be the same.

I listened. I found your interpretation of the scripture to not be validated by what we see in scripture.

You're quite simply wrong.

Peter speaks of Israel's salvation as being yet future when he wrote his first epistle to Israel.

1Pet 1:3-5 (KJV)
(1:3) Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (1:4) To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, (1:5) Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

He's talking about them (the remnant of Israel) entering their kingdom (i.e., the gospel of the kingdom).

 

[Arial]

By that logic no one before Christ died did.
That's generations and generations of mankind that died without any hope of salvation.



Your version of d'ism suggests that any man can die and still be able to believe after that.

My view: Faith in God has always been the avenue of eternal life that is possible to man. We could never get there by the required perfect obedience (no sin to be forgiven) because of our nature and the world we live in. And God has always been triune: the Son has always existed even if He had not been fully revealed in OT times, as have God as Father and Holy Spirit. David sinned, but had faith, He never wavered in worshiping God alone and in knowing who He is. Solomon on the other hand, eventually ran turned from God to follow idols.. Of Solomon God said he did not have a heart for the Lord as his father David did. The faith that gives forgiveness and eternal life is a heart condition towards God, that only God can see clearly. David's heart is expressed vividly in his Psalms. He never worshiped any but God, he repented from his heart when he sinned, he trusted in God for everything.

Now Christ as the Son of Man and substitute for those who believe, has been revealed, and we come to God through Him and His righteousness, and faith in who He is and what He did for us.

 

[Arial]

There different "redemption's" in the Bible. You try to force everything to be the same.

There are different phases and unfolding of one redemption, and that through faith in the crucified and risen Lord.

You're quite simply wrong.

Peter speaks of Israel's salvation as being yet future when he wrote his first epistle to Israel.
He's talking about them (the remnant of Israel) entering their kingdom (i.e., the gospel of the kingdom).

You can say that I am wrong, and even believe it as often as you would like. That will not change the fact that through the clear reading of the word, do not believe I am.

Peter is not speaking of Israel's salvation as being yet future when he wrote his first epistle in Israel to whoever would read it. He says nothing about a remnant of Israel entering their kingdom. The "their" is superimposed on the scripture from the bias with which you approach it. He is speaking of arriving at the fulness of our salvation. A believer is fully saved and sealed in that salvation now but as even Paul expresses in some of his epistles, and which is also obvious, we have not arrived at its fullness, which arrives with the second coming of Christ and the new heaven and new earth.

 

[glorydaz]

By that logic no one before Christ died did.
That's generations and generations of mankind that died without any hope of salvation.

What? I didn't say they weren't saved, only that they had to wait until the Lord returns.
God saves people in different ways with different requirements.

Your version of d'ism suggests that any man can die and still be able to believe after that.

What? I have no idea what you're talking about.

 

[glorydaz]

I have been taking a look into MAD, something that previously I had taken no interest in as it was, to me, simply a different view of the same thing and did not affect salvation. But on this forum I began to dislike it simply because of the contemptuous treatment that members give to those who disagree, and the intense singular focus on certain aspects of it. Now I know you will say no one treated anyone with contempt, least of all you. But contempt really is in the eye of the one receiving it and I also realize that humankind has a supreme desire to justify and deny whatever wrong they do. And yes, I know too that you will throw that back at me as though it does not apply to you at all but only those who don't agree with MAD. In anycase, a great disservice to your cause has been done simply by the behaviors that have come forth.

So I began looking into it from all angles---pro and con---to see where these strange (to me) ideas come from. In doing so I came across the Grace Ambassadors website. Within this was a list of five most common responses to MAD. And by clicking on those, the scriptures to combat these negative responses. Guess what: the same few scriptures repeated on here by every MAD adherent are the same ones repeated, and repeatedly, as a counter to the negatives. That is a play book. Not to mention that the scriptures used are not interpreted in the same way by MAD as traditional Christianity or common sense interpret them. So saying your playbook is the Bible is useless. I could say the same, yet I disagree with you on many things. Except I only need the Bible to explain why I believe what I believe, not deliberately formated instructions of specific issues, known to be controversial with in a sect. Which btw, you will find also with Morrmen and JH etc. Not saying MAD is a cult or unChristian, just saying in order to convince people of its "rightness" it is forced to do the same. Provide ready answers to the questions that are certain to arise.

What kind of drivel is this now? The minute you got here you had your dander up. You did the same thing at the last site you were at, and I tried to befriend you, seeing you were off base with many of the basics. Thus you've dug your own pit....just lay there and stop your griping until you can put off that foolish pride.

Good grief. It sucks having to deal with this kind of foolish pride. "All angles"....my foot.

 

[glorydaz]

Then your viewpoint would have Glorydaz be wrong for saying Abe didn't have the details required to be saved before he died.

You simply misread what I said, so please don't use me to prove some point that can't be made.

 

[glorydaz]

There different "redemption's" in the Bible. You try to force everything to be the same.

You're quite simply wrong.

Peter speaks of Israel's salvation as being yet future when he wrote his first epistle to Israel.

He's talking about them (the remnant of Israel) entering their kingdom (i.e., the gospel of the kingdom).

Exactly. Peter makes it very clear. Why this is so difficult to understand, is beyond me.

Acts 3:
19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord.

20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

 

[Tambora]

My view: Faith in God has always been the avenue of eternal life that is possible to man.

Mine too.

David said "Blessed be the man in whom God does not impute sin".
If that could be done without the details of Christ dying and rising, then He died in vain because there was already a way.

Job said he knew his redeemer lived and he would see God after his earthly body died.

But some MADists will claim that their particular faith is superior in nature than all those other great men of faith.

 

[Tambora]

You simply misread what I said, so please don't use me to prove some point that can't be made.

Did Abe have the details or not????

 

[Tambora]

What? I didn't say they weren't saved, only that they had to wait until the Lord returns.
God saves people in different ways with different requirements.

If there was already multiple ways to be saved unto eternal life then Christ didn't need to die.
There has always been only way to be saved unto eternal life.
Claiming there have been multiple ways is bogus to the core.