Blasphemy?

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian asks:
Why do fundamentalists always try to settle every argument by claiming Christians are saying that God is a liar?

They don't.

Someone just did. As you know, Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the God of Abraham. All the same God. We don't all agree, and Muslims and Jews err in not accepted Jesus as God. But still the same God.

You need to 'read' your dusty book.

Perhaps you should get to the NT; you're missing a lot of important material.

Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

So now, you're claiming Jews don't worship the same God as we do? Isaiah was speaking of Jews there.

Barbarian observes:
No, it's just a dishonest argument. The God of Abraham is worshiped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. It is dishonest to deny this fact.

Again, read your Bible! John 16:1-4 1“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.

So this is an anti-Semitic post? Jesus is talking about Jews and synagogues, not Muslims. Actually, it is, either way. Muslims are largely Semites also. But none of that proof-texting says that Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham, as we do.

Quit making it up as you go.

 

[genuineoriginal]

The Bible calls Jesus Christ:

"The Everlasting Father" Isaiah 9:6
"The Mighty God" Isaiah 9:6
"The Almighty" Revelation 1:8
"God" John 1:1
"God" 1 John 5:7
The Creator of everything John 1:3
"Our God and Savior" Titus 2:13
"Our Lord and our God." John 20:28

"The Beginning and the Ending"

Would you like someone that can read to explain these verses to you?

Saying that Jesus Christ is not God is an antibiblical teaching and blasphemy.

No, the Bible is very clear in its teaching that we are to worship God, the father of Jesus Christ.
Saying Jesus Christ is not the Son of God is anti-Biblical and blasphemy.

 

[genuineoriginal]

I gotta side with the OP in this. The mods are demonstrating their ignorance and bigotry by giving such an infraction. This is a matter of language. Allah = God in Arabic. And in the Islamic faith they worship the God of Abraham, who is also called Yahweh by the scriptures.

No, it's just a dishonest argument. The God of Abraham is worshiped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. It is dishonest to deny this fact.

The fact remains that Jews, Muslims, and Christians all worship the God of Abraham, and freely admit the fact.

Christians have always admitted that Jews and Muslims worship the God of Abraham.

Jews and Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham but cannot claim to worship the God of Isaac and Jacob, then they are worshiping a different God.

 

[csuguy]

Jews and Christians worship the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

If Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham but cannot claim to worship the God of Isaac and Jacob, then they are worshiping a different God.

To my knowledge they do not distinguish between the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac & Jacob.

 

[The Barbarian]

To my knowledge they do not distinguish between the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac & Jacob.

No, they don't. They can't. Because, contrary to what G.O. tells you, the God of Abraham is the same as the God of Isaac and Jacob. I don't know why he makes up things like that.

This, from a Muslim:
Yaqub (Arabic: يَعْقُوب, translit.: Yaʿqūb ), also known as Jacob, is a prophet in Islam who is mentioned in the Qur'an.[1] He is acknowledged as a patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that he preached the same monotheistic faith as did his forefathers: Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ismail. Yaʿqūb is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.[2] In the majority of these references, Jacob is mentioned alongside fellow Hebrew prophets and patriarchs as an ancient and pious prophet who remained in the "company of the elect".[3][4] Muslims hold that Jacob was the son of Isaac and that he preached the Oneness of God throughout his life. As in Christianity and Judaism, Islam holds that Jacob had twelve sons, each of which would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.[5] Jacob plays a significant role in the story of his son, Joseph, and is referenced around twenty-five times throughout the narrative.[6] The Qur'an further makes it clear that God made a covenant with Jacob[7] and Jacob was made a faithful leader by God's command.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_in_Islam

G.O.s latest post is consistent with his past behavior.

 

[genuineoriginal]

To my knowledge they do not distinguish between the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac & Jacob.

When have you ever heard a Muslim state he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

Jesus thought the distinction was important.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?​

No, they don't. They can't. Because, contrary to what G.O. tells you, the God of Abraham is the same as the God of Isaac and Jacob. I don't know why he makes up things like that.

This, from a Muslim:
Yaqub (Arabic: يَعْقُوب, translit.: Yaʿqūb ), also known as Jacob, is a prophet in Islam who is mentioned in the Qur'an.[1] He is acknowledged as a patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that he preached the same monotheistic faith as did his forefathers: Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ismail. Yaʿqūb is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.[2] In the majority of these references, Jacob is mentioned alongside fellow Hebrew prophets and patriarchs as an ancient and pious prophet who remained in the "company of the elect".[3][4] Muslims hold that Jacob was the son of Isaac and that he preached the Oneness of God throughout his life. As in Christianity and Judaism, Islam holds that Jacob had twelve sons, each of which would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.[5] Jacob plays a significant role in the story of his son, Joseph, and is referenced around twenty-five times throughout the narrative.[6] The Qur'an further makes it clear that God made a covenant with Jacob[7] and Jacob was made a faithful leader by God's command.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_in_Islam

Maybe you don't know what the scriptures say about it, since you appear to be confused on the issue.

Matthew 3:9 And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.​

Romans 9:7 7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.​

Islam claims descent from Ishmael instead of from Isaac

Genealogy and association with Arabs

As Islam became established, the figure Ishmael and those descended from him, the Ishmaelites, became connected, and often equated, with the term Arab in early Jewish and Christian literature.[36] Before Islam developed as a religion, Ishmael was depicted in many ways, but after its establishment, Ishmael was almost always seen in a negative light in Jewish and Christian texts, as he becomes the symbol for the "other" in these religions.[37] As the Islamic community became more powerful, some Jewish midrash about Ishmael was modified so that he was portrayed more negatively in order to challenge the Islamic view that Ishmael, and thus the Muslims, were the favored descendents of Abraham.[38] This became the genealogy according to Jewish sources and the Bible, in contrast with the genealogy of Arabs according to Muslims.[36] The development of Islam created pressure for Muslims to be somehow different than Judaism and Christianity, and accordingly, Ishmael's lineage to Arabs was stressed.​

Here is what the Bible says about that:

Galatians 4:22-23 22 For it is written, that Abraham had two sons, the one by a bondmaid, the other by a freewoman. 23 But he who was of the bondwoman was born after the flesh; but he of the freewoman was by promise.​

G.O.s latest post is consistent with his past behavior.

I always wonder why you like to side with the opponents of the Bible instead of the people that believe it.

 

[Daniel1611]

Jesus Christ is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

 

[csuguy]

When have you ever heard a Muslim state he worships the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?

I don't talk to Muslims much - but I know Christians don't usually address him with in those terms. Not because they believe something different - but because Christians tend to prefer other appellations like "Father." You have a very weak case here.

Jesus thought the distinction was important.

Mark 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?​

You are reading into the passage. Jesus is using the full appellation here, but he is by no means placing importance upon using this one over others. To the contrary, he usually uses Father.

 

[Delmar]

The moderator in question brings dishonor upon himself for giving out such an infraction, and the rest of the moderators bring dishonor upon themselves for letting the infraction stand. This is an injustice and they should correct it.

Of course, the infraction will expire, so its not a huge deal - but it nevertheless is a manifestation of the darkness here at TOL.

:yawn:

 

[The Barbarian]

Barbarian observes:
No, they don't. They can't. Because, contrary to what G.O. tells you, the God of Abraham is the same as the God of Isaac and Jacob. I don't know why he makes up things like that.

This, from a Muslim:
Yaqub (Arabic: يَعْقُوب, translit.: Yaʿqūb ), also known as Jacob, is a prophet in Islam who is mentioned in the Qur'an.[1] He is acknowledged as a patriarch of Islam. Muslims believe that he preached the same monotheistic faith as did his forefathers: Ibrahim, Ishaq and Ismail. Yaʿqūb is mentioned 16 times in the Qur'an.[2] In the majority of these references, Jacob is mentioned alongside fellow Hebrew prophets and patriarchs as an ancient and pious prophet who remained in the "company of the elect".[3][4] Muslims hold that Jacob was the son of Isaac and that he preached the Oneness of God throughout his life. As in Christianity and Judaism, Islam holds that Jacob had twelve sons, each of which would go on to father the Twelve Tribes of Israel.[5] Jacob plays a significant role in the story of his son, Joseph, and is referenced around twenty-five times throughout the narrative.[6] The Qur'an further makes it clear that God made a covenant with Jacob[7] and Jacob was made a faithful leader by God's command.[8]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacob_in_Islam

Maybe you don't know what the scriptures say about it

I do, and I know why you're confused on the issue. Let's take a look at your attempt at proof-texting:

Matthew 3:9
And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

He's saying here that it is not only Hebrews that will have Abraham as a father, but all who follow God, like Europeans and Arabs.

Romans 9:7
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.

As you see, Christians, Muslims, and Jews all count Issac as much as Abraham, a worshipper of God.

Islam claims descent from Ishmael instead of from Isaac

It doesn't matter, but of course Arabs claim descent from Ishmael. Some Muslims, like some of the Jewish tribes that converted to Islam claim descent from Issac, but it doesn't matter if you're an actual descendent of him or not. Most of us aren't, but we can still worship the God of Abraham.

God doesn't hold salvation out only to the genetic descendents of Abraham or Issac. That's a common misconception among those of your persuasion, but salvation is open to all who accept Him.

Barbarian observes:
G.O.s latest post is consistent with his past behavior. I always wonder why he likes to side with the opponents of the Bible instead of the people who believe it.

 

[Lon]

As you know, Christians, Muslims and Jews worship the God of Abraham. All the same God. We don't all agree, and Muslims and Jews err in not accepted Jesus as God. But still the same God.

Muslims kill Christians for converting [from Islam to Christianity]: If it were the same god, you'd think that'd not be the case, so I can see a Mod on Christian forum taking great exception and taking a strong stance.

Perhaps you should get to the NT; you're missing a lot of important material.

lain:

So now, you're claiming Jews don't worship the same God as we do? Isaiah was speaking of Jews there.

Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.

:nono: He was talking about believers and alternately those whose hearts were far from Him, nice try though.

Muslims kill Christians for converting [from Islam to Christianity]: If it were the same god, you'd think that'd not be the case, so I can see a Mod on Christian forum taking great exception and taking a strong stance.

No, it's just a dishonest argument. The God of Abraham is worshiped by Jews, Christians, and Muslims alike. It is dishonest to deny this fact.

Muslims kill Christians for converting [from Islam to Christianity]: If it were the same god, you'd think that'd not be the case, so I can see a Mod on Christian forum taking great exception and taking a strong stance.

So this is an anti-Semitic post? Jesus is talking about Jews and synagogues, not Muslims. Actually, it is, either way. Muslims are largely Semites also. But none of that proof-texting says that Muslims don't worship the God of Abraham as we do.

Hello --> scripture :doh:

John 16:1-4 1“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.

Muslims kill Christians for converting [from Islam to Christianity]: If it were the same god, you'd think that'd not be the case, so I can see a Mod on Christian forum taking great exception and taking a strong stance

[YOU] Quit making it up as you go.

 

[genuineoriginal]

Barbarian observes:
I always side with the opponents of the Bible instead of the people who believe it.

Yes, I already mentioned that.

You seem to be under the delusion that Muslims will be saved because they claim that Allah is the God of Abraham.

I am amazed that you see no real difference between Muslims and Catholics.

 

[keypurr]

:doh: Wake up!



Here you are hoping you and the other ten arians on the planet will be spared but ""to hell with the rest of us." He told you point blank the Quran nor he has any problem with killing Christians. What did you do? Sold out. Your grandkids are on that hit list :doh:

No, he was asking about the connection between his God and ours. It was an honest question. Since we both believe in the God of Abraham he has a good question. But some, like yourself, do not see that.

I was thinking about deleting the "All Arians Perverted" thread. This just reminds me that it needs to stay put on TOL.

This is a hate thread and you knew that when you started it. It should never have been started.

(Still quite on my ignore list, but I'm glad I looked for once. You've lost your mind and sold your soul for fear or brain-damage or both - God cannot be mocked)

Please keep me on your ignore list.

I do wish you well Lon. Have you addressed your college about getting your money back yet? You really got taken in by them.

 

[csuguy]

:yawn:

Its good to see that the mods on this site hold themselves to high standards. Good work sheriff.

 

[Repentance]

They don't. You need to 'read' your dusty book.
Isaiah 29:13 The Lord says: "These people come near to me with their mouth and honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. Their worship of me is based on merely human rules they have been taught.


Again, read your Bible! John 16:1-4 1“All this I have told you so that you will not fall away. 2They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the time is coming when anyone who kills you will think they are offering a service to God. 3They will do such things because they have not known the Father or me. 4I have told you this, so that when their time comes you will remember that I warned you about them.

Quit making it up as you go.

So these verses are talking of Muslims,according to you? No problem with that. I know very well why it cannot be talking of people like me.

22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

 

[Repentance]

Both Christians and Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, of Israel, of Noah and of Adam - one God.

Most Christians say that this God is a Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God.

Muslims claim that this is shirk - that we shouldn't associate anything or anyone with God the Father who is the One True God.

Personally I believe that God doesn't change his ways nor does he reveal something extraordinarily new about him. Worship the God of Israel and we know what the righteous among them thought of God.

An interesting fact for me is that Muslims are not circular in their beliefs. We are taught to reach out to God the Creator of the heavens and the earth - no matter our status and understanding- and worship Him alone and ask from Help from Him alone to guide us. Surah Fathiha, which is read by a Muslim at least 17 times a day, has no element of circular reasoning. We are not told to assume that X has got it right or that Y is a part of God that is some sort of mediator and that we should call upon him with that attribute.

 

[Lon]

So these verses are talking of Muslims,according to you?

:nono: Rather, God is talking about His people, the Israelites, and some of them only paid Him lip service, but did not love Him or know Him. The next scripture said that those who were doing the wrong things, NEVER knew Him. At that point, answer me this: Were they serving God or somebody else?

No problem with that. I know very well why it cannot be talking of people like me.

It talks to people exactly like you and me. God speaks, we listen and figure out what He is saying.

22:40 [They are] those who have been evicted from their homes without right - only because they say, "Our Lord is Allah ." And were it not that Allah checks the people, some by means of others, there would have been demolished monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques in which the name of Allah is much mentioned. And Allah will surely support those who support Him. Indeed, Allah is Powerful and Exalted in Might.

Some of these concepts 'may' be shared about God, but you are the one who told me that the Quran doesn't have a problem with killing Christians.

The New Testament has a problem with murdering Christians, Muslims, or others, for their/our beliefs. America guarantees that all men are created equal and are endowed with unalienable rights from their Creator: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of meaning/happiness. There is no "killing another people group" to eliminate them. We are having a hard time with Muslims right now, so their freedom here in America is somewhat restricted, only because of terrorism. Nobody but Muslims are terrorizing just about every other nation, at the moment. There are a few communists, but they aren't attacking every single nation violent acts.

 

[Lon]

Both Christians and Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, of Israel, of Noah and of Adam - one God.

Most Christians say that this God is a Trinity and that Jesus Christ is God.

Muslims claim that this is shirk - that we shouldn't associate anything or anyone with God the Father who is the One True God.

The Gospel of John says that the Word (logos) was with God and was God. John 1:1
The Gospel of John says that this Word became flesh, but we preincarnate (alive before this happened). John 1:14;18
The Gospel of John also states that Thomas called Jesus his Lord and His God. John 20:18

This is not two separate beings, but one God who is able to present Himself as both Father and Son. "Trinity" does not mean three Gods. There is only one God. Spirit does not divide, only when He manifests Himself to us. We are the finite creatures, He is infinite, which means our limited understanding has a hard time grasping that Jesus was God, but scripture tells us He is.

Personally I believe that God doesn't change his ways nor does he reveal something extraordinarily new about him. Worship the God of Israel and we know what the righteous among them thought of God.

Because we are finite (limited), every revelation is extraordinary for us.
Read the verse in my signature, that He is exceedingly, abundantly, beyond anything that we can hope or imagine. 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 John 3:2 tell us one day we will see Him as He is and know Him, but not in this limited body.

An interesting fact for me is that Muslims are not circular in their beliefs.

"Simple" doesn't always mean right. Algebra and Calculus, though complicated, are as correct as basic math but are MUCH better at explaining some problems more accurately or in a way that basic math cannot.

We are taught to reach out to God the Creator of the heavens and the earth - no matter our status and understanding- and worship Him alone and ask from Help from Him alone to guide us.

I couldn't find Him, unless He reached out to me first. I was born with sin that kept me from Him and hurt my soul, my mind, my heart. God must reach us. This is the message of Jesus. He came not only to 'teach' but to fix what was wrong with us, because of sin. It is a promise so we wait for the fulfillment of it BUT, God puts His Holy Spirit as a surety for all those who have this promise. 2 Corinthians 1:22

Surah Fathiha, which is read by a Muslim at least 17 times a day, has no element of circular reasoning. We are not told to assume that X has got it right or that Y is a part of God that is some sort of mediator and that we should call upon him with that attribute.

Sin separates us from God. God had provided prophets and priests before, but now there is only the High Priest, Jesus Christ.
This is written to Hebrews, but applies to Muslims and Christians because we all have but one priest, one Mediator between God and man:

Heb 3:1 Therefore, holy brothers, you who share in a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the apostle and high priest of our confession,
Heb 3:2 who was faithful to him who appointed him, just as Moses also was faithful in all God's house.
Heb 3:3 For Jesus has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses—as much more glory as the builder of a house has more honor than the house itself.
Heb 3:4 (For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God.)
Heb 3:5 Now Moses was faithful in all God's house as a servant, to testify to the things that were to be spoken later,
Heb 3:6 but Christ is faithful over God's house as a son. And we are his house if indeed we hold fast our confidence and our boasting in our hope.
Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says, "Today, if you hear his voice,
Heb 3:8 do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion, on the day of testing in the wilderness.

Heb 7:19 (for the law made nothing perfect); but on the other hand, a better hope is introduced, through which we draw near to God.
Heb 7:20 And it was not without an oath. For those who formerly became priests were made such without an oath,
Heb 7:21 but this one was made a priest with an oath by the one who said to him: "The Lord has sworn and will not change his mind, 'You are a priest forever.'"
Heb 7:22 This makes Jesus the guarantor of a better covenant.
Heb 7:23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office,
Heb 7:24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever.
Heb 7:25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.

 

[Repentance]

:nono: Rather, God is talking about His people, the Israelites, and some of them only paid Him lip service, but did not love Him or know Him. The next scripture said that those who were doing the wrong things, NEVER knew Him. At that point, answer me this: Were they serving God or somebody else?

How can they serve God when they don't know Him In the first place? They are serving themselves, probably having being led astray.

I'll ask you a simple question? DO you KNOW God? If you do how do you serve/worship Him?

It talks to people exactly like you and me. God speaks, we listen and figure out what He is saying.

Yes but it needn't apply to us.

Some of these concepts 'may' be shared about God, but you are the one who told me that the Quran doesn't have a problem with killing Christians.

No I did not and I explained what I meant.

The New Testament has a problem with murdering Christians, Muslims, or others, for their/our beliefs. America guarantees that all men are created equal and are endowed with unalienable rights from their Creator: Life, liberty, and the pursuit of meaning/happiness. There is no "killing another people group" to eliminate them. We are having a hard time with Muslims right now, so their freedom here in America is somewhat restricted, only because of terrorism. Nobody but Muslims are terrorizing just about every other nation, at the moment. There are a few communists, but they aren't attacking every single nation violent acts.

What they do has no basis in the Quran or divine Islamic teachings. Sometimes I feel that they look for justification and example in the OT rather than the Quran. I might be right. They have hijacked the mission of Islam. Muslims are supposed to be the force that calls for the implementation of the laws of God -banning all the vices that brings the wrath of God - homosexuality, abortion, intoxicants and drugs, demonic music, the adultery of the eye, interest, and false religion.

 

[Repentance]

The Gospel of John says that the Word (logos) was with God and was God. John 1:1
The Gospel of John says that this Word became flesh, but we preincarnate (alive before this happened). John 1:14;18
The Gospel of John also states that Thomas called Jesus his Lord and His God. John 20:18

Lord =κύριος. This same word was used by Sarah for her husband Abraham. In no way does it indicate divinity. It just means what it is - a person with authority over you.

What Thomas said was just an exclamation of surprise. My God! Millions of Christians believe that only God the Father is worthy of worship.

Even the Quran calls Jesus as a Word and Spirit from God. How should we understand this? Jesus was created just like Adam was and both of them had some sort of pre-birth existence with God.

This is not two separate beings, but one God who is able to present Himself as both Father and Son. "Trinity" does not mean three Gods. There is only one God. Spirit does not divide, only when He manifests Himself to us. We are the finite creatures, He is infinite, which means our limited understanding has a hard time grasping that Jesus was God, but scripture tells us He is.

My understanding of the Trinity is as good as any Christian's. I know what I'm rejecting. It is not natural - the notion of the Trinity. The belief in God, the One True God, should come naturally. The Quran explains why:

7:172 And @ when your Lord took from the children of Adam - from their loins - their descendants and made them testify of themselves, [saying to them], "Am I not your Lord?" They said, "Yes, we have testified." [This] - lest you should say on the day of Resurrection, "Indeed, we were of this unaware." [QUOTE]Because we are finite (limited), every revelation is extraordinary for us. [/QUOTE] This is where the danger lies. The ways of God should not change. For example He cannot reveal to us that He has a daughter, a sister of Jesus! Or he cannot now be okay with homosexuality. This is how we can judge the truth of revelation - put it to the test. Even satan can come up with scripture or personal revelation - no doubt about that. [QUOTE]Read the verse in my signature, that He is exceedingly, abundantly, beyond anything that we can hope or imagine. 1 Corinthians 13:12 and 1 John 3:2 tell us one day we will see Him as He is and know Him, but not in this limited body.[/QUOTE] Yes but you'll realise that God does not share any of his supreme attributes with anyone else. [QUOTE] "Simple" doesn't always mean right. Algebra and Calculus, though complicated, are as correct as basic math but are MUCH better at explaining some problems more accurately or in a way that basic math cannot. [/QUOTE] I said that it is not circular - not necessarily simple. Surah Fathiha teaches us to call upon the Lord of the Universe for help and guidance and no one else. By doing that we Muslims are not circular in out faith. If we called upon Christ to guide us - now that's circular. Because we have assumed that Christ - with all his human features and attributes - is capable of guiding us. It would be if Christianity is of the truth - if we assume so. Instead why not call upon the Creator himself! [QUOTE]I couldn't find Him, unless He reached out to me first. I was born with sin that kept me from Him and hurt my soul, my mind, my heart. God must reach us. This is the message of Jesus. He came not only to 'teach' but to fix what was wrong with us, because of sin. It is a promise so we wait for the fulfillment of it BUT, God puts His Holy Spirit as a surety for all those who have this promise. 2 Corinthians 1:22[/QUOTE] Nothing was wrong with us when God created us and gave us our forms. Saying that we were born sinners is an insult to the Creator. [QUOTE]Sin separates us from God. God had provided prophets and priests before, but now there is only the High Priest, Jesus Christ. This is written to Hebrews, but applies to Muslims and Christians because we all have but one priest, one Mediator between God and man [/QUOTE] [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirk_%28Islam%29"]Shirk[/URL] takes us completely outside the Infinite Mercy of God. If we deny God and his attributes then we earn his wrath upon ourselves. Yes, sin Separates us from God by tarnishing our pure natures. But if we call upon God alone in sincere repentance the infinite mercy and grace of God would purify us and forgive us of our sins. We needn't even repent as long as we believe in God and His Rights. God is Merciful - he needs no blood ransom of any kind. And God is All-Knowing, All-Seeing, we do not require intercessors and it is God who gives power to intercessors. In a way our Allah differs from yours - I agree.;