Biblical Flat Enclosed Earth and Firmament

[intojoy]

Just accept the truth of what you see and sense. Go to the beach in Oahu with good cameras and telescopes, binoculars etc. and look across to see there's no curvature. When you accept reality, you can thank me later. Get off your smart phone and look outside your efficiency apartment for one, you lonely man you. Take the bus or walk to beach with your equipment after you eat at the soup kitchen. Get some sun and some blood moon in your system. By the way deceiver, I don't predict end times or anything else, stop accusing the brethren. Also, nit, this thread is in religion not ECT, so I can post anything "religious" that I want. I changed the rules again from the OP, had to take the gloves off because of all the trolling. You're lukewarm.

I’m not gonna waste my time looking for a star or curves. What the hell man? I’d rather watch tv.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[patrick jane]

FIRMAMENT - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com

On the second day in the Genesis narrative the Lord calls for there to be a "firmament" in the "midst of the waters" to divide the waters:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
​

The term "firmament" and its identity has been one of the greatest puzzles concerning the Creation account, mostly because of its Hebrew definition:
רָקִיעַ raqiya` raw-kee'-ah
from 7554; properly, an expanse, i.e. the firmament or (apparently) visible arch of the sky:—firmament.
רָקַע raqa` raw-kah'
a primitive root; to pound the earth (as a sign of passion); by analogy to expand (by hammering); by implication, to overlay (with thin sheets of metal):—beat, make broad, spread abroad (forth, over, out, into plates), stamp, stretch.
Most people interpret this to mean just the expanse of the sky (the atmosphere) or outer space, or both (which it is), but the full meaning goes well beyond that simplistic interpretation. The creation of the firmament is associated with the placement of some sort of structure.
Many modern scholars consign the term "firmament" as a relic of a pre-scientific culture and translate the Hebrew word raqia as a "dome" or "vault" in some modern Bibles. It is rendered as "firmament" in the KJV. The problem that puzzles people is the implication in the Hebrew language of the firmament being a firm, fixed structure (FIRMament). That structure and word choice can be explained in the context of the Ruin-Reconstruction interpretation of Genesis.
Young Earth Creationists have interpreted the "waters above the firmament" as a theoretical "water canopy" which once surrounded the Earth but no longer exists. They cite this as their source for the waters of Noah's flood. This is incorrect, and a concept that does not exactly hold water (pun intended) when closely examined within the literal framework of the Genesis narrative. The reason is because of what is said in this passage:

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years: And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so. And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also."
(Genesis 1:14-16 KJV)
​

This verse says that the Sun, Moon, and Stars are "in" the firmament. Therefore, applying the rules of grammar and logic, those waters that are "above the firmament" must be above the Sun, Moon and Stars. That means these waters are above the visible cosmos. For some this is a hard pill to swallow, but that is exactly what the Bible is saying.

"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
​

The Bible says that all wisdom and knowledge is found in the Lord Jesus Christ, the incarnate Word of God (see Colossians 2:3). The same holds true for the Holy Scriptures, the written Word of God. According to the Scriptures, there is a physical/spiritual structure to the universe. The Apostle Paul makes reference to the importance of this knowledge in the book of Ephesians where he wrote:

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
(Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV)
​

Pay close attention to the structure of the grammar. Paul is speaking about two different things in this passage. The first is the structure of things, "the breadth, and length, and depth, and height;" and the second is, "to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge." The important key word here is the conjunction "And" which separates the two clauses. In other words, Paul is saying there are two things the believer can and should know. 1) The dimensions and structure of all things, which can be defined. 2) The love of Christ, which is beyond full comprehension by man. A corollary to the truth of this passage is found in this Old Testament proverb:

"The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings [is] unsearchable."
(Proverbs 25:3 KJV)
​

The firmament deals with the structure of the present heavens and Earth (Genesis 2:1), as opposed to the structure of the original heaven and Earth (Genesis 1:1). There is presently a three (3) heavens structure. In the old world of the original creation, there was a different configuration. Let's look back to Genesis 1:6 again and more closely examine that verse to determine that present structure and review something that we previously just touched on:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which [were] under the firmament from the waters which [were] above the firmament: and it was so."
(Gen 1:6-7 KJV)
​

On the second day of the creation, the Lord God "divided" the waters (plural) of the great "deep" into two parts with a "firmament" in the midst. According to Genesis 1:10, both the waters that were upon the face of the Earth and the waters which He placed ABOVE the firmament He called "Seas":

"And God called the dry [land] Earth; and the gathering together of the waters called he Seas: and God saw that [it was] good."
(Gen 1:10 KJV)
​

This is important to understand. We know that the waters on the Earth are called "Seas" in the Bible, but there is also another "Sea" that is spoken of in the Scriptures, and that one is above the firmament. (Special note: Notice that the word "Sea" is capitalized at Genesis 1:10 in the KJV Bible). But, exactly where is "ABOVE" the firmament? During the seven days of the Genesis regeneration the Lord God defined Three Heavens. The first heaven is the Earth's atmosphere:

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl [that] may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven."
(Gen 1:20 KJV)
​

The second heaven is the vast expanse of the physical universe - outer space as we call it:

"And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:"
(Gen 1:14 KJV)
​

These two heavens constitute a continuum called the "firmament," and this firmament is collectively called "Heaven":

"And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Gen 1:8 KJV)
​

The Third Heaven is above this upper "Sea," and this higher sea is below the Throne of God:

"And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
(Revelation 4:6 KJV)
​

Therefore, this particular "Sea" above the firmament is above the known physical universe. Since the sun, moon and stars are "in" the firmament this Sea MUST be above them. This is difficult for the science of man to fathom, but it is a Scriptural fact on cosmology. It represents a firm and impassable barrier between the world of man (below) and the abode of God (above). Here are some additional verses in the Bible which refer to this particular Sea:

"Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that [be] above the heavens."
(Psalms 148:4 KJV)
​

This is the "sea" that John saw in his visions:

"And before the throne [there was] a sea of glass like unto crystal: and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, [were] four beasts full of eyes before and behind."
(Rev 4:6 KJV)
​

This is a present "sea" of separation that will no longer exist when God destroys the old world and makes all things new after the 1,000-year Kingdom of Heaven and the final judgment that follows:

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea."
(Revelation 21:1 KJV)
​

This "sea" is also spoken of in Exodus 20:11, the verse frequently quoted by Young Earth Creationists as a proof text to support their doctrine:

"For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it."
(Exodus 20:11 KJV)
​

The reference to "the sea" in the above verse is a reference to the sea established above the firmament, NOT to any sea on the Earth's surface. Look at the English grammar of the verse. The heaven and Earth are set apart as separate and distinct entities and so is "the sea." That sea above the firmament was not made until the second day of Genesis. There is something even more important to notice about these waters above the firmament. Look again at the passage concerning the second day:

"And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day."
(Genesis 1:6-8 KJV)
​

Something is missing there. Do you remember what was said previously? This work on the second day is the ONLY day in the Genesis narrative where the Lord does NOT say it "was good." Therefore, when you consider the statement the Lord makes in Genesis 1:31 where He says that all that was made was "very good"...

"And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
(Genesis 1:31 KJV)
​

...it must be considered so in the context of circumstances. The context is the overall work of Reconstruction from Ruin and the preparation of the Earth and a new world for Man. The term "very good" does not mean "perfect," and the sea of separation placed between the world above and the world below was not good, but necessary. It would not be until the work of the Lord Jesus Christ on the cross that a way would be made for crossing that barrier (the sea, or waters, above the firmament).

That particular "sea" is represented (in type) by this object that was a part of the design of Solomon's Temple known as the "Molten Sea." (See 1 Kings 7:23 and 2 Chronicles 4:2.) If you look at a diagram layout of the Temple you will see that this sea is between the Altar and the main part of the Temple where the Holy Place and Most Holy Place was.

Here in the design of the Temple can be found in schematic form the structure of all things, in type. The Altar where the sacrifices were made represents where the Lamb of God was sacrificed. It represents the world that is below (the Earth & the first and second heavens). The Molten Sea is between those two lower heavens and the "Third Heaven" where the true Temple of God is located.

The Third Heaven

This now gives us a better understanding of what the Apostle Paul was talking about in the book of 2 Corinthians 12:2, where he speaks of a place called the "third heaven":

"I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth such an one caught up to the third heaven."
(2 Cor. 12:2 KJV)
​

Although the "third heaven" is not directly mentioned in the Genesis narrative, the established structure of all things is defined in Genesis 1 and, when understood, allows us to comprehend exactly where and what Paul was talking about when he mentions the "third heaven" in his letter. It also gives the reader a better understanding of John's vision in Revelation 4. Again, when the Lord God divided the waters He created a boundary which presently exists between the two lower heavens (which constitute the firmament) and the third heaven (where the throne of God is). That boundary is that "Sea," and again that "sea" is above the two lower heavens of the firmament. It is also likened in places to crystal or smooth glass:

"And the likeness of the firmament upon the heads of the living creature was as the colour of the terrible crystal, stretched forth over their heads above."
(Ezekiel 1:22 KJV)
​

The reason it appears like a smooth, crystal surface is because it is frozen:

"The waters are hid as [with] a stone, and the face of the deep is frozen."
(Job 38:30 KJV)
"And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness."
(Exodus 24:10 KJV)
​

It is also likened to glass:

"And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God."
(Revelation 15:2 KJV)
​

With this understanding of what exactly the Firmament is and the structure of all things that God made during the seven days, many things that were previously obscure suddenly take on real meaning and enrich the reader's understanding.
In summary, here is the structure of the physical world as it now exists from the face of the Earth upwards:

• The lower sea of physical waters (our seas and oceans)
• The first heaven (the atmosphere)
• The second heaven (outer space)
• The sea above outer space and below the third heaven (a sea of separation)
• And above it all, there is the Third Heaven.

"That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, May be able to comprehend with all saints what [is] the breadth, and length, and depth, and height; And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God."
(Ephesians 3:17-19 KJV)
​

The structure of the heavens is a recurring theme throughout the Bible. It is reinforced (in typology) throughout the Bible. For example, it is likened to the floors of a building, which we call "stories" and, sure enough, the same word is even used in the KJV Bible. It is used to describe the design of the heavens:

"[It is] he that buildeth his stories in the heaven, and hath founded his troop in the earth; he that calleth for the waters of the sea, and poureth them out upon the face of the earth: The LORD [is] his name."
(Amos 9:6 KJV)
​

This pattern of three (3) "stories" is also found is some other important things in the Bible, an example being the description of the design of Noah's Ark:

"A window shalt thou make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt thou finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt thou set in the side thereof; [with] lower, second, and third [stories] shalt thou make it."
(Genesis 6:16 KJV)
​

It is also used to describe the construction of the Temple:

"The door posts, and the narrow windows, and the galleries round about on their three stories, over against the door, cieled with wood round about, and from the ground up to the windows, and the windows [were] covered;"
(Ezekiel 41:16 KJV)
​

In the construction of Moses' Tabernacle in the wilderness there were three (3) main parts: 1) The outer court, where the brazen altar of sacrifice was. 2) The Holy Place, where the candlestick, table of shewbread, and golden altar of incense were. 3) The Holy of Holies where the Ark of the Covenant was. Also note that between parts two and three was a curtain for a partition, which matches the "sea" above the firmament (in type) in the structure of the Three Heavens. It is no coincidence that all these Biblical things have a similar three-tiered structure. There is much spiritual insight to be gained in further study of those things:

• Three Heavens
• Three levels inside Noah's Ark
• Three floors in a section of the Temple
• Three sections to Moses' Tabernacle

Concerning the design of the Temple, keep in mind that Moses' tent Tabernacle and Solomon's Temple both had three (3) main parts:

• The outer court
• The holy place (where the table, lamp and incense alter was, outside the veil)
• The Most Holy Place (where the Ark was, behind the veil)

As you can see, this theme of structure based on threes is consistent throughout the Bible. Even the structure of the Earth has three (3) main divisions: the core, the mantle, and the crust.
Does the Universe really have a structure? When you go into outer space is there really any such thing as up and down, is there a top and bottom? Does the cosmos have a definite shape? We cannot observe such in our three-dimensional view of the universe, but is that all that is really out there? Not according to the Bible! In the words of Lord Himself there is a world above the one we live in and can observe:

"And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world."
(John 8:23 KJV)
​

Just because we cannot observe or understand something does not disprove its existence.
In the next section, we are going to discuss what the Holy Bible reveals about the Earth's ancient spiritual history and the events that shaped its natural history.

 

[patrick jane]

[h=1]The Pre-Adamite World and the Ancient Origin of Satan, a.k.a. Lucifer[/h]
FIRMAMENT - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com


Every Bible-believing Christian knows that when the serpent tempted Adam and Eve to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil (Genesis 2:17, 3:5, 3:6, 3:22), the man and the woman lost their innocence and died spiritually. Adam's transgression allowed death to enter into the world of man:
"Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
(Romans 5:12 KJV)
"For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord."
(Romans 6:23 KJV)
Was the Serpent (Satan) an enemy of God before he tempted the man and woman? The obvious answer is yes. Satan MUST have become a sinner and an enemy of God prior to the temptation. That brings up an important question:

IF Death results from Sin. WHEN AND WHERE did Satan Sin Against God?​

It could NOT have happened during or shortly after the seven-days of Genesis, else the serpent (a.k.a Satan, Lucifer) would have been responsible for Death entering the world of Adam. Romans 5:12 does not say that. It had to have happened before the world of the seven-days of Genesis, in a previous world that was on the face of the Earth prior to the world of Adam. And this is revealed by the Holy Bible.
"Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;"
(Hebrews 1:2 KJV)
For a detailed discussion of the Worlds of the Bible, review the link, The "Worlds" and the "Earth" - The Biblical Time Line.
"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth."
(Genesis 1:1 KJV)
"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."
(John 8:44 KJV)

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."
(1 John 3:8 KJV)
The Earth was already present before the start of the seven-days of Genesis; the ruined remains of an ancient world that God created In the Beginning:
"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
(Genesis 1:2 KJV)
So what exactly happened between Genesis 1:1 and Genesis 1:2, and why? Why was Death already in existence before the seven days and before Adam sinned? For that answer we must look to the writings of the prophets Isaiah and Ezekiel. There, in the prophetic Scriptures, the Holy Ghost spoke through these men concerning the ancient origin of Satan, which is the key doctrine to unlocking this great mystery.
What the Spirit of Truth Reveals in the Words of Truth

In the passages below the prophets are speaking against the "king of Babylon" (Isaiah 14:4) and the "prince of Tyrus" (Ezekiel 28:2) who were renown mortal men of history. Prophetically, the Spirit is also addressing a man yet to come, the antichrist (see 2 Thessalonians 2:1-10). However, it is clearly evident from the content that the Holy Ghost is also speaking here against a spirit being; an ancient, unholy, and malevolent spirit that motivated the evil deeds of these historical and mortal men:

"How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! [how] art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations! For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north: I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High. Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit. They that see thee shall narrowly look upon thee, [and] consider thee, [saying, Is] this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms;"
(Isaiah 14:12-16 KJV)
"Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone [was] thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou [art] the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee [so]: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou [wast] perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee."
(Ezekiel 28:13-17 KJV)
​

The words highlighted in red speak of things that could not possibly be attributed to the actual acts of any human king or prince. No man in history has ever "walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire" or "fallen from heaven."
Several things of importance are contained in the above passages. The words “garden of God” reveals that there was vegetation on the Earth, even way back then. The word "Eden" represents a specific place on the face of the Earth. It was the same location on the face of the Earth where God later planted another garden and formed Adam and Eve. It was the location where Lucifer was, at the beginning and later when the serpent tempted the man and his wife. He was upon the “holy mountain of God” and the “sides of the north” which Biblically identify the location as where Jerusalem is now located:
"And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD."
(Isaiah 66:20 KJV)
"O Lord, according to all thy righteousness, I beseech thee, let thine anger and thy fury be turned away from thy city Jerusalem, thy holy mountain: because for our sins, and for the iniquities of our fathers, Jerusalem and thy people are become a reproach to all that are about us."
(Daniel 9:16 KJV)
"Beautiful for situation, the joy of the whole earth, is mount Zion, on the sides of the north, the city of the great King."
(Psalm 48:2 KJV)
Lucifer was not an angel, as were the "sons of God" and the "morning stars" of Job 38:4-11:
"Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? Or who shut up the sea with doors, when it brake forth, as if it had issued out of the womb? When I made the cloud the garment thereof, and thick darkness a swaddlingband for it, And brake up for it my decreed place, and set bars and doors, And said, Hitherto shalt thou come, but no further: and here shall thy proud waves be stayed?"
(Job 38:4-11 KJV)
Angels do not have wings. Lucifer was a cherub, a winged creature with great power.
And he set the cherubims within the inner house: and they stretched forth the wings of the cherubims, so that the wing of the one touched the one wall, and the wing of the other cherub touched the other wall; and their wings touched one another in the midst of the house.
(1 Kings 6:27 KJV)
Lucifer, the cherub, was said to be "anointed", indicating he had a high position of service to the Lord when he was created. Note that, similar to the jewels in the breastplate of Israel’s high priest that had 12 jewels (see breastplate of Aaron in Exodus 39:10-13 and Minerals of the Bible), Lucifer had a covering of nine jewels set in gold. Similar, but different.
The “tabrets” indicate an association with a music. The word “covereth” implies that he was the steward over the entire physical creation of the original Earth and heaven, in the beginning. This was also the beginning of theKingdom of Heaven.
Lucifer was the worship leader of that ancient world. The “stones of fire” reference is obscure, but the Hebrew word indicates something akin to building stones. It could indicate there was a Temple of Fire upon the holy mountain at that time. Keep in mind that "fire" can be a physical and/or spiritual component:

"And Elisha prayed, and said, LORD, I pray thee, open his eyes, that he may see. And the LORD opened the eyes of the young man; and he saw: and, behold, the mountain [was] full of horses and chariots of fire round about Elisha."
(2 Kings 6:17 KJV)
"And the angel of the LORD appeared unto him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush: and he looked, and, behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed."
(Exodus 3:2 KJV)
"And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God."
(Revelation 4:5 KJV)
"For our God [is] a consuming fire."
(Hebrews 12:29 KJV)
​

Regardless, Lucifer wanted to be more than his anointed lot, he wanted to be worshiped like God. And that act of rebellion was his trespass against the Lord God. That SIN brought DEATH into the ancient heavens and Earth.
Lucifer rebelled and transgressed against the Lord God and became the first created being to sin a long, long time ago before Adam or his world was even created. The earliest (thus first) documented sin (and documented in the Holy Scriptures we should add) occurred countless eons ago. We can know this by examining the Earth's geologic record.

Geologists have observed a record of life in the fossile record back in Deep-Time as far as 3.8 billion years ago. From a Biblical standpoint, this tells you that DEATH has been on the Earth for at least that long.
Death results from Sin.
Did these fossils sin? NO – But someone who had stewardship over God’s creation did sin. At the bottom of the chart there is a time-period called the “ARCHEAN” which contains an era that is called the Hadean. (Named after HADES).

Scientists had THEORIZED that the surface of the Earth at that time was an ocean of molten magma (lava) that eventually cooled and that water (and life) was brought to Earth by comets or asteroid impacts at a much later time. Remember, that is just a theory.
The Bible has an alternative answer to these questions of science. This matter is discussed in depth on our website at this link:
The Ancient Earth - Two Different Viewpoints
Because Lucifer was the steward of the whole creation under heaven when he fell, all things under his rule were also subjected to corruption (i.e. death, entropy). His act of rebellion unleashed the wrath of God on the entire universe. There is evidence of a great bombardment of the Earth in the Hadean period that could have destroyed the surface of the Earth, erasing what terrestrial flora and fauna that may have been present in that early pristine world.
The "sons of God" and the "morning stars" (Job 38:4-7) would have abandoned their earthly habitation. If there were other forms of life on the planet's surface, they would have been greatly deminished. In the aftermath of the destruction, those lifeforms that survived and eventually arose would have the sentence of death upon them. Their fossilized remains are the testimony, written in stone, of life's struggle under that death sentence across the geologic ages afterwards.
Scientists use the term Evolution to describe the observed progress of life-forms on this planet as revealed in the fossil record. But the Bible tells you that God created the heavens and the Earth and placed the first life-forms on the planet. They did not evolve.
Darwin called his theory the survival of the fittest, and it does appear that more and more complex organisms took their place on the stage of natural history, but they did so as a process initiated by God, not by chance. Evidence from the fossil record reveal they adapted in their struggle against death. The dinosaurs came and went. All things died, and those creatures that came after them also died. So it continued across millenniums of historical time until the spirit of death finally overtook all things, including the stars across the universe.
A few million years ago coldness and darkness began to increase. It was the onset of what we call the beginning of the last Ice Age, and it is the universe's eventual cold, dark, and completely dead condition that the Spirit describes in Genesis 1:2.

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness [was] upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
(Genesis 1:2 KJV)
​

And at that point in time, the Lord God made a new heavens and Earth to replace what Lucifer's fall evenutally destroyed. The seven-days of Genesis are the regeneration of the heavens and Earth.
In the next chapter, we will look at some of the fossil observations that are suggestive of the violent end of the previous old world.

 

[patrick jane]

[h=1]Observations of Geological Evidence for
the Death of the Old World[/h]
FIRMAMENT - Definition from the KJV Dictionary - AV1611.Com


The geologic and fossil records are the surviving evidence, written in stone, that testify to the truth that the Earth is very old and was populated long before the seven days of Genesis chapter one. But does that record provide evidence of the sudden end of the old world by a universal destructive event before the seven days and before Noah's flood?

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
(Genesis 1:2 KJV)
​

This certainly would appear to be the case. Throughout the geologic record there is evidence of mass extinction and geologic catastrophes. The theory that a giant asteroid struck the earth about 65 million years ago and thus precipitated the demise of the dinosaurs is now widely accepted as a fact. As recently as just a few years ago, that theory was scoffed at until the remains of an ancient crater were found in the Yucatan. That same school scoffed at Alfred Wegner's theory about plate tectonics "The Origin of the Continents and Oceans" back in the early days of the 20th century, but today that theory is considered the grand unifying theory of the geological sciences.
One of the greatest remaining mysteries to modern geology is found within the most recent episode of mass destruction which occurred in the geological age called the Pleistocene; the age just before the Holocene, which is the age of Man. This extinction event appears to be linked with the Ice Age. The evidence consists of vast "animal cemeteries" found in many places around the world, which seem to show a catastrophic and sudden destruction of life all across the planet only a few thousand years ago.
This evidence was documented by many back in the 19th century, but this evidence was mostly ignored by the leading scientists of the day because it did not fit into the prevailing scientific paradigm. This evidence is still mostly ignored today, although the Young Earth Creationists have seized upon it as proof of Noah's flood. It is actually proof of the flood which happened just before the time of Genesis 1:2, the time when all life on the surface of the Earth had been wiped out.
The best collection of the documentation on this event can be found within the paper "Catastrophe and Reconstitution" by the late Arthur Custance. I recommend you take time to read this paper. For those of you in a hurry, here is a sampling of references by several scientists cited within that paper:
On the general topic of animal cemeteries, one source wrote:

"The great problem for geological theories to explain is that amazing phenomenon, the mingling of the remains of animals of different species and climates, discovered in exhaustless quantities in the interior parts of the earth so that the exuviae of those genera which no longer exist at all, are found confusedly mixed together in the soils of the most northerly latitudes. . . The bones of those animals which can live only in the torrid zone are buried in the frozen soil of the polar regions." Penn, Granville, A Comparative Estimate of the Mineral and Mosaical Geologies, Vol. II, 2nd ed., London, 1825, p. 81.
​

In a reference to a site in Italy another wrote:

"In this sandy matrix bones were found at every depth from that of a few feet to a hundred feet or more. From the large and more apparent bones of the elephant, the rhinoceros, the megatherium, the elk, the buffalo, the stag, and so forth, naturalists were led by the elaborate studies of Cuvier and other comparative anatomists to the remains of the now living bear, tiger, wolf, hyena, rabbit, and finally the more minute remains even of the water rat and the mouse. In some places so complete was the confusion . . . that the bones of many different elephants were brought into contact, and on some of them even oyster shells were matted."
Fairholme, George, New and Conclusive Physical Demonstrations of the Fact and Period of the Mosaic Deluge, n.p., 1837.
​

In one of his early writings, even Charles Darwin commented on what he saw in the fossils of South America:

"The mind is at first irresistibly hurried into the belief that some great catastrophe has occurred. Thus, to destroy animals both large and small in South Patagonia, in Brazil, in the Cordillera, in North America up to the Behring Straits, we must shake the entire framework of the globe. Certainly no fact in the long history of the world is so startling as the wide extermination of its Inhabitants."
Darwin, Charles, Journal of Researches, Ward Lock, New York. 1845, p. 178.
​

A contemporary of Darwin commented:

"We live in a zoologically impoverished world, from which all the hugest and fiercest, and strangest forms have recently disappeared.... Yet it is surely a marvelous fact, and one that has hardly been sufficiently dwelt upon this sudden dying out of so many large mammalia not in one place only but over half the land surface of the globe."
"There must have been some physical cause for this great change, and it must have been a cause capable of acting almost simultaneously over large portions of the earth's surface."
Wallace, Alfred Russell, Geographical Distribution of Animals, Vol. 1, Hafner, New York, 1876, pp. 150, 151.
​

From a book titled "The Mammoth and the Flood" by Sir Henry Howorth, the following are excerpts about data he gathered first hand in Siberia:

"In the first place, it is almost certain in my opinion that a very great cataclysm or catastrophe occurred . . . by which the mammoth with his companions was overwhelmed over a very large part of the earth's surface. This catastrophe, secondly, involved a widespread flood of waters which not only killed the animals but also buried them under continuous beds of loam or gravel. Thirdly, that the same catastrophe was accompanied by a very sudden change of climate in Siberia, by which the animals that had previously lived in fairly temperate conditions were frozen in their flesh under the ground and have remained there ever since."
"When the facts are stated, they are of such a nature as to be almost incredible and they are drawn from the works of such men as Wrangell, Strahlenberg, Witzen, Muller, Klaproth, Avril, Erman, Hedenstrom, Betuschef, Bregne, Gemlin, Brandt, Antermony, Liachof, Kusholof, Chamisso, Maljuschkin, Ides, Baer, Schmidt, Bell, Tatishof, Middendorf, von Schrenck, Olders, Laptef, Sarytschef, Motschulsky, Schtscukin, Maydell, besides the official documents of the Russian Government." Howorth, Sir Henry, Thc Mammoth and thc Flood: Uniformity and Geology, London, 1887. p. 47.
​

Henry Howorth had this to say on animal cemeteries:

"The most obvious cause we can appeal to as occasionally producing mortality on a wide scale among animals is a murrain or pestilence, but what murrain or pestilence is so completely unbiased in its actions as to sweep away all forms of terrestrial life, even the very carriers of it--the rodents-- including the fowls of the air, the beasts of the field, elephants, tigers, rhinoceroses, frogs, mice, bison and snakes, landsnails, and every conceivable form of life, and this not in one corner only but, as far as we know, over the whole of the two great continents irrespective of latitude or longitude."
"The fact of the bones occurring in great caches or deposits in which various species are mixed pell-mell is very important, and it is a fact undenied by geologists that whenever we find such a locality in which animals have suffered together in a violent and instantaneous destruction, the bones are invariably mixed and, as it were, 'deposited' in a manner which could hardly be explained otherwise than by postulating the action of great tidal waves carrying fishes and all before them, depositing them far inland with no respect to order." Howorth, Sir Henry, Thc Mammoth and thc Flood: Uniformity and Geology, London, 1887, p.180.
​

In concluding remarks Howorth had this to say:

"If animals die occasionally (in large numbers) from natural causes, different species do not come together to die, nor does the lion come to take his last sleep with the lamb! The fact of finding masses of animal remains of mixed species all showing the same state of preservation, not only points to a more or less contemporary death, but is quite fatal to the theory that they ended their days peacefully and by purely natural means."
"If they had been exposed to the air, and to the severe transition between mid-winter and mid-summer, which characterizes Arctic latitudes, the mammoths would have decayed rapidly. But their state of preservation proves that they were covered over and protected ever since."
"It is almost certain in my opinion that a very great cataclysm or catastrophe occurred by which the mammoth and his companions were overwhelmed over a very large part of the earth's surface. And that the same catastrophe was accompanied by a very great and sudden change of climate in Siberia, by which the animals which had previously lived in fairly temperate conditions were frozen . . . and were never once thawed until the day of their discovery. No other theory will explain the perfect preservation of these great elephants."
​

In summarizing his comments on Howorth and the other sources cited, Arthur Custance made these observations:

"Howorth even recorded a whale which was found entombed with the elephants, a discovery which Pallas confirmed--mentioning also buffalo in situ with the heads of large fishes."
"In spite of the fact that many of these authorities would now be considered quite out of date, so that their interpretations would almost certainly be rejected, the evidence itself remains undeniable; and it is difficult to explain it satisfactorily in any other way."
"Such, then, is the kind of evidence which is to be found all over the world of the sudden death of an enormous number of animals of very recent and modern times. Some of these creatures died in latitudes that were almost at once plunged into an Ice Age which preserved them by freezing. Some of them died in more temperate zones and were accumulated by the action of torrents of water sweeping hither and yon as the earth reeled, before the waters had been sufficiently gathered together in one place to expose the dry land. And, finally, some were accumulated and rammed together forcibly and indiscriminately into clefts in the rocks which served to sieve them out of the draining waters."
"The suddenness of the event is everywhere attested, in the Arctic by the extraordinary state of preservation of mammoths and other creatures, and in the more temperate zones by the very fact that predators and preyed upon came to a sudden end together. Even within the waters, the movements of silt and water-washed materials were sometimes so sudden and overwhelming that fishes were trapped before they had the few seconds necessary to react in a characteristic defensive way. Some bivalved forms, in fact, were overwhelmed so rapidly that they did not have time to close."
"Furthermore, we may conclude, I think, that the catastrophe which was worldwide profoundly affected world climate."
Custance, Arthur, "Catastrophe and Reconstitution" Custance Library Doorway Papers & Books on Interface between Faith and Science
​

Although I do not personally subscribe to all the doctrines which the late Arthur Custance put forth in his vast collection of papers, I do feel that he presented a good argument for the evidence of a great universal catastrophe in the days before true man was placed upon the earth. Although the exact mechanics of the total event are not yet understood, there is ample supporting evidence for a vast and violent flood as the destructive agent; a flood BEFORE the flood of Noah's days. This would be consistent with the gap of Genesis 1:2 and the condition of the earth at that point in time.
Lastly, there is a more contemporary observation that I extracted from a published interview and story by Linda Moulton Howe of www.earthfiles.com and is reprinted here, in part, by written permission of the copyright holder. The full article, including graphics, is available by subscription.

12,000-Year-Old Human Hair DNA Has No Match With Modern Humans
Copyright 2001 by Linda Moulton Howe - All Rights Reserved.

October 28, 2001 Woodburn, Oregon - Human hair dating back to the last Ice Age ten to twelve thousand years ago was discovered in 1999 at an archaeological dig in Woodburn, Oregon between Salem and Portland. The Ice Age site is filled with the bones of elephants, sloths, condors and a bird with a 14-foot wingspan. The unidentified human hairs were found perfectly preserved a few feet underground and had enough follicles for DNA analysis. This week I talked with geology professor emeritus, William Orr, at the University of Oregon, about DNA efforts to match the Ice Age hair to any living hominoid species on earth today.

Evacuation units at Woodburn, Oregon Ice Age archaeological site were prepared and excavated. Some units were skim shoveled and then trowled so that animal limbs and fauna could be extracted without harm.
William Orr, Ph.D., Professor Emeritus in Geology, University of Oregon, and Director of the State Museum of Paleontology, Eugene, Oregon: "You can identify human hair, forensic criminologist types, can identify human hair from a single strand because of the granules and color and all that kind of stuff. You can distinguish human hair from all other hair just from a little piece of follicle."
DNA analyses of hair follicles found at the site have so far failed to find a match with any known human racial type living on earth today.

"We found several strands of human hair, long pieces a foot and a half long, black, long pieces of hair. And then if you can find the root of the hair that still has a follicle, you can do DNA on it. So researchers immediately sent the (Ice Age) hair off to a lab and they began to extract the DNA. Some of it was not so good, but a lot of it was well preserved in the oxygen-poor bogs of Woodburn. The geneticists found the hair didn't match any Asian hair DNA. It didn't match African, European. It didn't match anything. Dogma would be that Ice Age humans along the west coast of the United States would be from a Japanese population that is alleged to have come over the Bering Sea back twelve to thirteen thousand years ago."

"So right now we have DNA we can't track. We can't figure out what it's from. Apparently from a population we don't have today. They are gone. And it's only 11,000 or 12,000 years old. About that time period, there was a huge crisis in animals. The larger animals all disappeared and they disappeared in a wave. They disappeared first in British Columbia and then in Washington, Oregon, California and right on down. Some were still around until 10,000 years ago in Tierra del Fuego. So, it was like a wave of extinction at the rate of about 10 miles per year."

Howe: "SO THERE IS A MYSTERY ABOUT WHAT KILLED OFF ALL OF THESE MAMMALS IN WAVES TEN OR TWELVE THOUSAND YEARS AGO?"

Orr: "Oh, yes. In fact for my money, it's far more profound than the crisis that killed off the dinosaurs and a few other animals at 66 million years ago. This (western North American) was more sudden, more pervasive. It kind of selectively took the large animals in a short period of time."

Howe: "HOW DEEP DOWN WERE THE HAIRS FOUND?"

Orr: "The deepest ones were from ten to twelve feet, but a lot of them were from much shallower depths. It's an old stream bed and we just took a little auguring device to core down and began getting well-preserved hair out of the clays. The Woodburn stuff it's like putting it in a deep freeze, or a glad bag and freezing it. It's an anoxic environment (no oxygen). You wouldn't believe the insects come out with colors still. And as you watch them, the color changes from the iridescent blue-green back to a kind of dull black, just in the exposure as they oxidize before your eyes. Even the butterflies come out with pigment and then they just change color."

Howe: "IT'S ALMOST AS IF THEY WERE QUICK FROZEN?"

Orr: "Almost."

Copyright 2001 by Linda Moulton Howe
All Rights Reserved.
​

​

In reference to the remarks about the remains being preserved almost as if "Quick Frozen" this is extremely interesting, as such is consistent with the finding of Wooly Mammoths from the same period in time whose remains indicate they too appear to have been quick frozen (many links can be found on the Internet which document that particular find). By interpretation, in the context of the Gap Theory doctrine, this is compelling evidence of a sudden and catastrophic end to life on this planet in the old world. If the sun (indeed the entire cosmos) of the old world suddenly went dark, by whatever agency, these findings would be consistent with such an event and the conditions on the Earth before the regeneration of the heavens and earth (Genesis 1:2).
Recently a nuclear scientist, Richard Firestone, reported finding "impact regions" on mammoth tusks found in Gainey, Michigan, which were caused by high velocity magnetic particles rich in elements like titanium and uranium. Firestone says that based on his discovery of similar material at a North American Clovis site, he estimates that comets (possibly produced by a relatively close supernova) struck the solar system during the Clovis period, roughly 13,000 years ago. This time frame, of course, closely correlates with the other evidence presented for an Extinction Level Event (ELE) on the Earth between approximately 13,000 - 10,000 years ago. Here is a link to the full article: "Comets Hit Early Americans, Scientist Says" There are additional links concerning such observations in the following chapter.

 

[patrick jane]

[h=1]Life Forms Just Before End of Ice Age
and After Seven Days of Genesis[/h]
The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical


Your attention is called to the particular phrasing "after their kind" and "after his kind" throughout the narrative of Genesis chapter one. When the Lord God made the new world on the face of the old Earth during those seven days, the Scriptures seem to tell us that He filled the new world with many of the same KINDS of plants and animals that had been on the face of the Earth previously. Many were not replaced after their kind, however, but new ones were introduced in their place.
The geologic time frame preceding the six days of Genesis correlates roughly with the end of the great "Ice Age" at the Pleistocene/Holocene epoch boundary, which dates to about 13,000 - 10,000 radio carbon (C14 ) years before present (BP = "1950"). As mentioned previously, the geologic record reveals a mass extinction episode at this time in which hundreds of large and unusual forms of megafauna mysteriously perished from the face of the Earth. Gone are the Mammoths, Mastodons, giant ground sloth, woolly rhinos, rats the size of dogs, armadillos the size of Volkswagens, and about 200 other known species, including some very weird-looking creatures that raise thoughts of radioactive mutations. They all disappeared geologically recently, by the end of the Ice Age. Their replacement "kinds" of today's world are quite different in both size and morphology.
The leading scientific theory was that humans hunted these animals to extinction, but that theory is losing favor for lack of direct evidence.

(Top-half of composite Graphic base image [lef] from "Meteorology Today" by C. Donald Ahrens ?1994 West Publishing Co.)​

Two important things should be noted from this composite graphic which shows the Earth's average atmospheric temperature (top part) and volcanic activity markers (bottom part) for the past 18,000 years BP.
1): There is a pronounced increase in indications of volcanic activity between the time when the megafauna extinctions begin (about 14,000 BP) that ends just slightly before the date of the regeneration of the heavens and earth (about 6,000 years ago- Genesis 1:2).
2): The end of the extinction phase terminates in a relatively sudden and dramatic drop in global temperatures, marked by the Younger-Dryas cooling event.
Clearly, the data indicate there were rapid temperature changes, an onset of intensive geologic activity, and probably changes in the levels of solar activity at this point in Earth's history. The latter fact is supported by reported fluctuations in radiocarbon concentrations in the Younger-Dryas cold period between 12,700 and 11,500 years BP. In sum, this was anything but a normal pattern of events.
Why would so many animals perish at one time (at the END of the Ice Age, when things were warming up) after surviving several thousand years through the harsh glacial conditions in the Pleistocene epoch? The scientific community is greatly divided on the issue. Some hold that they were killed off by "man" for food, by disease, their inability to adapt to a changing post-glacial climate, or some combination of all. This form of causal reasoning precipitates from a uniformitarian paradigm that is colored by our culture's preoccupation with political correctness and environmental issues like Global Warming.
Now a new theory on the cause of the Megafauna extinctions may hold the answer. Abundant tiny particles of diamond dust have been found in sediments dating to 12,900 years ago at six North American sites. This adds strong evidence for Earth's impact with a rare swarm of carbon-and-water-rich comets or carbonaceous chondrites, precipitating the Younger-Dryas. Here are a few links to recent reports concerning the effects of the Younger-Dryas event: Diamonds suggest comets caused killer cold spell - Comprehensive analysis of impact spherules supports theory of cosmic impact 12,800 years ago - New evidence that cosmic impact caused Younger Dryas extinctions.
Needless to say, the Biblical notion of a universal catastrophic destruction of all living things in the recent past and a Supernatural regeneration of the world by the Lord God is not something many men and women of science today would ever consider. So expect even more new theories to emerge as scientists continue to wrestle with this problem.
Would it not seem logical that a global event of this magnitude and severity, which wiped out the giant mammals, would also wipe out the humanoids that hunted them? Could a population of nomadic hunters quickly switch to an agriculturally sustained society, especially at a time when the Earth's average temperatures had plummeted sharply? I don't think so.
Keep in mind that according to the Bible, Adam and his linage began as tillers of the soil and herdsmen after Adam's fall. The first indication of hunting does not appear in the Bible until after Noah's flood. (See Nimrod, Genesis 10:9.) Consequently, if the Paleoclimate data are valid, and the Biblical time line of Adam and modern mankind is valid, then we must conclude it was not the descendants of Adam and Eve who hunted the now extinct mammoths. Those who did so were a race of man-like beings which were on the Earth before Adam and Eve; the Pre-Adamite race of hominids, not made in the "image of God," a fact which begs the question, in whose image were they made?
With the advent of the science of DNA testing, the supporting proof for this incredible hypothesis is coming to light, much to the consternation of the evolutionary uniformitarian school of human origins. For example, DNA testing of Neanderthal remains clearly shows that modern man is NOT descended from the Neanderthal. The DNA from three (3) different sets of Neanderthal remains showed that there is no genetic link between modern man and the Neanderthal. More recent studies of Neanderthal DNA and Neanderthal Skull Characteristics further confirm this finding. This is forcing the evolutionists to start looking even further back in the fossil record for a common "ancestor" or "missing link" branch from the primates. And, when they do, they indentify yet another one!
Recently the remains of an "anatomically modern human" (Cro-Magnon) found in Australia have revealed that it was at least 60,000 years old and had a mitochondria DNA generic marker which is now extinct. That is, nobody today is descended from that particular line of beings, at least on the female side. This find has raised serious debate between the "Out of Africa" and "Regional Continuity" evolutionary camps. Will future testing of other Cro-Magnon remains reveal similar DNA surprises? If the Bible is true, then the prediction is that they will.
Although there have been relatively recent reports of finding Neanderthal DNA segments in the DNA of some of the Earth's modern human population, this does not conclusively prove that Neanderthals and modern man mated sometime in the past. There is another plausible Biblical explanation concerning the exploits of the fallen angels (see: Genesis 6:2-6:4 & Daniel 2:43). Angels always appear as men throughout the Bible. And in order to create any offspring with human women they too must have unique DNA. If Genesis 6:2-4 is indicative of such behavior in Noah's days, and Daniel 2:43 hints of the same such behavior in more recent times (or the near future), then it is a stretch to assume those same "sons of God" could have been up to those same tricks with the bipedal biologics that inhabited the old world?
Evolutionary mainline science still cannot provide a fully satisfactory answer to origins of modern man. As the tools of science improve, like refined DNA techniques, the mysteries will only become more mysterious as is demonstrated by the above cases. Reasoning from a uniformitarian paradigm, and in reference to the above-cited pro and con cases of DNA connections to present humans, secular scientists will say that this only means those particular lines of humans must have been a branch of mankind that perished. They would have to make the claim that, as Evolutionary "theory" demands, that there was continuity of the human race. However, the link between the evidence from the past and present is still yet to be "scientifically" established. In fact, evolutionary research is finding just the opposite. Today scientists are claiming that human evolution has greatly accelerated, particularly since about 10,000 years ago. The truth is there are big morphological differences between "modern man" and "primitive man," and pronouncing a sudden acceleration of evolution is their only way of explaining the findings within the accepted evolutionary paradigm. The Bible has a better answer: Modern man is a new creation.
In another study that compared Neanderthal and modern human bone structures with those of the earliest members of the genus Homo, it was found that Neanderthals were a more 'normal' match than modern humans. This is just one more bit of accumulating data that supports the suggestion that modern humans are NOT descended from evolutionary ancestors; that modern man is a unique and a special creation, just as the Bible states.
The concisely parsed words of the Holy Bible say that there is a gap, or discontinuity, between the ancient world of the past (which included the Neanderthal) and the present world of modern man. The very existence of such a gap in the Genesis narrative is the unifying factor between the Bible narrative and all available empirical data. Specifically, ALL life on the planet perished near the Younger-Dryas marker, the planet was lifeless for a brief period, and then in a special Creative event (the 7 days of Genesis) the Lord God restored the Creation and made the world of true Man, Adam. Without knowledge that a "gap" existed, mainline science assumes that there was a continuum of life and attempts to fill in the blanks with the available evidence.
For review purposes, here is the Biblical sequence of events:
1) In Genesis 1:1 we have a general proclamation by the Spirit that God created the heaven and the earth. Life did not evolve and achieve self-conscience awareness. God made it. He made the planet to be inhabited (Isaiah 45:18). Exactly when in time it was first created and inhabited is not revealed in the Scriptures.
2) In Genesis 1:2 we find the Earth in ruin, in darkness, and in the waters, which indicate a state of ruin and destruction but, nonetheless, the Earth. Waters and darkness are already there before God says, "Let there be light." Exactly how long it was in that state is also not revealed by the Scriptures. However, the data from the Greenland ice sheet alone (which will be discussed in a later chapter) confirms that the Earth had already been around for at least 110,000 years. The rest of the Earth's geology reveals an even more ancient age, on the order of at least 4.5 billion years.
3) In Genesis 1:3 we have the Lord God making a new world out of the ruins and restoring the face of the Earth and the functioning of the heavens.
Let's put this time in the Earth's geologic history into perspective in relation to the remarkable set of coincidental historical findings that date to the same period of time near the end of the last Ice Age, the Pleistocene/Holocene boundary:
a. This was the time when the long period of the Ice Ages abruptly ended and the Earth's climate suddenly warmed up considerably.
b. This was the time when Neanderthal vanished and Modern man appeared.
c. If "man" has been evolving for a couple of million years, and there were "modern humans" 60,000 years ago, why did it take him so long to develop things like city- states, agriculture, arts, writing, structured social order, all of which only go back about 6,000 years?
d. Why did a few hundred very hardy species of megafauna, which had survived through the bitter conditions of the entire Pleistocene epoch, suddenly die off when things were just warming up?
e. Why is there global evidence of great volcanic activity in the late Pleistocene (including massive flood basalts), and why is there evidence of great tidal waves and vast animal death deposits in high mountain regions?
Is it just coincidence that all these things seem to have a common nexus in time? I don't believe so. All the facts and coincidences seem to point to a cataclysmic end of the old world at the end of the Pleistocene epoch, and this lends considerable support to the Bible's chronology of the seven days of Genesis and the special Creation of true Man.
Leaving behind the obscure and still mysterious events of the Pleistocene epoch and the geologic ages that came before it, let us now examine God's handiwork of the seven days of Genesis regeneration of life on the face of the Earth, according to the Bible. Since we have previously commented on the restored structure of the cosmos, we will now concentrate on the restoration of life forms on the planet's surface.
On the third day God replenished the Earth with vegetation:

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb yielding seed, [and] the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed [is] in itself, upon the earth: and it was so."
(Gen 1:11 KJV)
"And the earth brought forth grass, [and] herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, whose seed [was] in itself, after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good."
(Gen 1:12 KJV)
​

On the fourth day God made the sun, moon and stars from the ruins of the old cosmic order. The fact that the Bible says God made the vegetation on the third day and the sun on the fourth day causes Bible critics to point out that plants need sunshine to grow (photosynthesis), so the sequence can't possibly be true. Is this a mistake or is this unscientific? If the seven days of Genesis were literal 24-hour days, then there is no problem here. Since there were less than 24 hours between the placement of the vegetation (day 3) and the making of the regerated sun (day 4), any farmer will tell you that all plants can survive 24 hours without any sunlight. This order (plants before sunshine) disallows the notions that the seven "days" are long periods of time or that the Genesis account roughly parallels the evolutionary record. It does neither. Think about that one.
On the fifth day He filled the oceans with fish and aquatic mammals and filled the skies with birds:

"And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven. And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good."
(Gen 1:20-21 KJV)
​

Note of Interest: The wording of the above passage says that all the birds in our present world came forth from the waters, NOT the land. This shows that modern birds are not the direct descendants of the dinosaurs. Latest study: Scientists say no evidence exists that therapod dinosaurs evolved into birds.
According to the fossil record, there have been life forms in the Earth's oceans for millions of years. Many are long since extinct and new kinds took their place over the geologic ages. There are also fish that scientists thought were long extinct, but which have been found alive in today's oceans.
The "Coelacanth" is the best known example. A few years ago there was great excitment over the claim that scientists had discovered a living prehistoric Coelacanth. However, later, when scientists compared the fins of a fossilized Coelacanth with those of ones caught off the coasts of Africa and Indonesia, it turned out that it was not really the same primitive fish! Yep, that old fellow too appears to have been made "after his kind", as well and was not a direct descendant of the fossilized examples.
Although the void and dark Earth as found at Genesis 1:2 roughly correlates with the end of the "Ice Ages," we cannot be exactly sure when (before the seven days) all prior marine life forms perished. The most likely marker would again be the Younger-Dryas time frame discussed earlier, the same as when the last of the megafauna perished on land.
In His creative restocking of the new world's oceans on that day, God saw fit to include a fish akin to the old Coelacanth kind along with other kinds of fish which had populated the Earth's seas in the times immediately prior to the old world's destruction. On the other hand, many other ancient marine species were not reintroduced in the regeneration.
Then there is the sea creature that God created that was NOT made "after his kind" but was introduced new and unique and new creation in the new world - the "great" Whale.

And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
(Genesis 1:21 KJV)
​

Notice in the sentence structure of Genesis 1:21 that the creation of the "great whales" is set apart from the making of the rest of the sea creatures by a comma. Are the great whales a specific species of the whale like the gigantic Blue Whale, or is this a general reference to the suborder of Baleena or a particular size range? I'm not sure. There are small whales that look like dolphins like the Beluga Whale. And there is a larger animal we call a killer whale, or Orca, which is actually the largest dolphin. And then there is the "Whale Shark" which is not a mammal like the whale or dolphin (it is a really big fish). So the Biblical term "great whales" is somewhat ambiguous. Regardless, we can say with a high degree of confidence that according to the Bible, there are "great whales" swimming in today's oceans that where not on the Earth in the previous world.
At this juncture we should mention that there is a whale of a controversy these days about the evolution of the whale. Mainline science argues that the whale evolved from a wolf-like (some argue a hippopotamus-like) land creature and did so in a very accelerated period of time (about six million years) and very recently, geologically speaking. This is inconsistent (and just the opposite) of the evolutionary paradigm that all land creatures evolved from ancestors that originally came from the seas. Could it be that God's creation of the "great whales" threw such a monkey wrench into the fossil record of whale species that evolutionary scientists had to create a special rapid macro evolutionary scenario to explain the disconnect?
On the sixth day the Lord filled the new world with the land animals:

"And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that [it was] good."
(Gen 1:24-25 KJV)
​

All these living creatures and the vegetation are said to be made "after their kind" or "after his kind," and there seems to be a great emphasis placed on that point in the narrative. Now (and this is VERY IMPORTANT) see what else the Lord God did NOT make "after his kind" - Man:

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth."
(Gen 1:26 KJV)
​

This last use of the word "after" in relation to the creation of Man provides the true sense of interpretation of the word as used elsewhere in the Genesis narrative. If Man was made "after our likeness" and it is assumed that this is God's likeness, which was a pre-existing form or pattern God and the "sons of God" have, then this gives credibility to the notion that the vegetation and animals were made after the patterns of previously existing forms which were on the face of the Earth in the old world. This would explain the emphasis and number of references to "after his kind," much like the term "a thousand years" is stated and restated six times in Revelation chapter 20 to define the exact length of Christ's future Kingdom on the face of the Earth. Still, even after repeating the term "a thousand years" six times to make the point, amillennial and postmillennial eschatologists still overlook that Biblical truth.
It should also be pointed out that Man was the ONLY living thing in Genesis (other than the whale) that was NOT said to be made "after his kind"; therefore he was new and unique. That uniqueness was in respect to being made in the image of God, which is more than a physical, bodily trait, but more one of the soul and mind, although it could also be in respect to the form of the angels which always appear as a man (see Hebrews 2:7). And unlike all the other creatures God made during the seven days, only Man was told to "replenish" the Earth (Genesis 1:28), which indicates that Man, made in God's image, was to replace the humanoids that inhabited the old world. These humanoids obviously had a physical form biologically very similar to true Man in physical sense, but not in mind and soul as defined being created after God's likeness.

"And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth."
(Genesis 1:28 KJV)
​

Summation: The truth of these passages and the emerging evidence affirms that true Modern Man is a newcomer to the face of this old planet. True Man, made in the image of God, has only been on the Earth about 6,000 years. He is a created creature, he did not evolve. Although he was preceded on the face of the Earth by lineages of humanoids of varying morphology closely approaching modern anatomical similarity, Adam and his descendants (us) are unique. That uniqueness is defined as creation in the image of God, and that definition eludes scientific quantification.

 

[patrick jane]

[h=1]The Necessary Dividing Lines between Science and Faith
and the Vanity of the Ongoing Creation vs. Evolution Debate[/h]
The physical world we live in is governed by specific laws of nature that are understood from experimentation and observations. Those laws and principles were established by the Lord God Himself, and He said they were very good (Gen 1:31). Understanding how these laws govern the order and workings of the physical universe is the pursuit of good science. Readers should keep firmly in mind, however, that the Lord God, who established the observed physical laws of nature, is not Himself in subjection to those laws. The Bible is replete with instances where the Lord God has supernaturally intervened against the laws of physics and nature. Examples are the parting of the Red Sea (Exodus 14:21), the turning back of the shadow of the sundial (2 Kings 20:9), the stopping of the earth's rotation for about 24 hours (Joshua 10:12-14), the virgin birth of the God-Man, the Lord Jesus Christ, and all the miracles performed by Him when He was on the Earth. With God, nothing is impossible. The creative work of the seven days of Genesis is the first example of such Divine intervention in the Bible.
On the other hand, God sometimes uses the established natural laws and physical things of this world to accomplish His Divine purposes. Noah's flood is just one example:

"And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth."
(Gen 6:13 KJV)​

Let us clearly state up front that the ongoing controversy of "Creation vs. Evolution" will never be resolved to the satisfaction of the secular scientific community. It cannot be resolved in a secular context regardless of the well-intended efforts of many on either side of the debate, or in between, because the current focus of the argument is emotionally and factually misdirected.
Armed with only the observations of current and historical geologic processes and other empirical data, and assuming natural history has been a continuum across billions of years, the present secular paradigms of geological and evolutionary theory are about the best belief system that the educated carnal mind of man could be expected to conceive and accept from the available physical evidence. Without the input of Biblical Authority, current theories are incomplete and many questions and mysteries remain unresolved, especially in relation to the origins of mankind.
Secular scientists are confident to point out scientific inaccuracies of the Bible because they have been led to view the Bible through the distorted lenses of traditional Biblical interpretation. What these scientists have successfully contradicted is traditionally-held Biblical interpretation; specifically, that all things were created out of nothing only about six thousand years ago, as espoused by Young Earth Creationists. However, when you get down to the solid core of what the Bible actually and truly says, Scripture compared to Scripture, there is no scientific evidence in existence today to refute what it actually says: All life, indeed an entire ancient world order, had already perished from the face of the Earth long before the seven days of Genesis. The rightly-divided Scriptures reveal that the seven days of Genesis are a REGENERATION of the heavens and earth, and that life on this planet has not been an actual continuum. Both the Bible and scientific data are most certainly in agreement on one very key point: This planet Earth is very, very old, and if God authored both the Word and Earth's geologic record, no real contradiction in fact can possibly exist. The fault MUST be interpretive on both sides.
Noah's flood and Divine creative intervention by a Holy God are not factored into the world's accepted origins model because God can't be observed or quantified in a physical system or seen under a microscope, although the results of His work can be observed and quantified. For these reasons there is an unbridgeable gap between secular Empirical Science and the Christian faith in respect to both Creation and Noah's flood. Empirical Science is the pursuit of quantifiable facts and repeatable observations and is limited to the physical sphere of reality. From this purely physical perspective, the geological evidence appears to indicate that this planet and the life on it are the result of natural processes over time, and that the existence of all life forms and extinction must be credited to a natural process of random mutations and selection by nature itself. In such a paradigm of interpretation, the researcher's faith is in a theory or synthesis of theories which seems to best fit the observations.
The Christian, on the other hand, must also deal with spiritual things, which are just as real as physical things, but can only be seen through the agency of faith by the illumination of the Word of God. An honest born-again Christian (who is also a scientist) cannot be fully objective in an empirical perspective in dealing with the question of origins. The acceptance of God's Words on matters of original sin and supernatural agency hold us accountable to a higher interpretive system, a system which has no place of welcome in the institutional physical sciences of the world. No amount of compromise will be acceptable to either the Naturalist or Creationist extremes of each respective school. That being said please do not misunderstand. A lot of good knowledge emerges from the practice of good science and the scientific method, and there are a lot of good Christians who are scientists. History is replete with the names of famous scientists who believed in the God of the Holy Bible. But when it comes to matters of origins and the things of God, natural science (without God) is as much out of its depth in providing the full truth as the Young Earth Creationist who ignores solid scientific data.

"Science without religion is lame; religion without science is blind."
-- Albert Einstein​

Behind the scenes, however, the real driving issue between Naturalists and Creationists is not the existence of God. The real issue is whether all things were created by the Hebrew God of the Holy Bible and according to a designed purpose and specific time scale. The authority of the Bible and the moral issue of personal accountability to God are the hidden root of all contention in that debate.
Leaving behind the vanity and politics of the Creation/Evolution debate, those who have a well-grounded faith in the Scriptures and a good knowledge of the geological evidence (not theories) are in the better position to attain to a more perfect understanding of how all the pieces of the puzzle fit together. It is only when we accept God and His Words as the final authority in ALL matters that we are able to perceive the complete picture and resolve the "6,000 years problem" at the heart of the controversy. It is our goal through these web pages to provide you some of those answers.
The Bible will ALWAYS have an answer, although we may not immediately see it. For example, it was not until a few centuries ago that the Geological sciences had progressed to the point where the previously-accepted 6,000 year age of the Earth, which was dogma in both the institutions of Church and science, began to be questioned by what was observed in the geological record. Some theologians of the day who were honest enough to realize the truth of those emerging observations and were steadfast, faithful, and committed to defending the Scriptures, were inspired to observe the possibility of a time "Gap" between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2 in the Creation narrative. That "Gap" had always been there - ever since the day Moses penned the book - but not many eyes were open to seeing or understanding it until the time was right. It was already there when the Scottish theologian, Thomas Chalmers, first noticed and began to preach it in the early 19th century. Up until then, the real age of the Earth was not a burning issue. But when the proper time came, the Word of God once again proved itself timely and relevant to the level of scientific understanding of the day.
This is "Progressive Revelation" and it continues even in our present age. Here is another example of Progressive Revelation in the book of Revelation:

"And they of the people and kindreds and tongues and nations shall see their dead bodies three days and an half, and shall not suffer their dead bodies to be put in graves."
(Revelation 11:9 KJV)​

The question is how could people all over the world, in different nations and places, all "see" these dead bodies on a street in Jerusalem at the same time? Certainly from the time John wrote it in about 90 AD, up to about the middle of the 20th century, nobody could understand how that would be possible. But today, with global satellite Television and Internet Web Cams, anyone today can understand how it is possible. The point is this: It was a truth that was not revealed to mankind until it was TIME, even though that literal truth had always been there in the Bible. The same holds true for the Genesis narrative. When it was time for man to learn about geology and Earth's natural history, and the full truth about origins, the qualifying verses and explanations were already there in the Genesis narrative and elsewhere in the Bible. It was TIME for those truths to unseal. It is now time for the Fundamental Christian Church to accept this paradigm shift.
This line of thinking is completely lost, of course, on the Young Earth "Creation Scientists" of today who preach that the original creation of ALL things occurred only 6,000 years ago. They also use Noah's flood as the catchall solution to explaining the Earth's sedimentary rocks. They claim that all the Earth's hydrocarbons (coal and oil) were made by Noah's flood. Some claim that most of the Earth's mountains were uplifted during Noah's flood. Some even claim that the Ice Age was precipitated by Noah's flood. Because their theology demands that all of the Earth's natural history be jammed into a narrow 6,000-year period, they are required to have the dinosaurs roaming the earth before the flood, side by side with mankind, and a few even have dinosaurs listed as part of the animals on Noah's Ark. The "science" (see 1 Timothy 6:20) for support of this belief system is based mainly on appeals to anomalies, "what if" arguments, "water canopies" which defy the laws of physics, and a peculiar collection of urban legends. It is neither good science nor good Biblical interpretation.
I don't dispute that Noah's flood was real, because the Bible tells us that Noah's flood was real. In coming chapters we will discuss a flood model that addresses the real-world Scriptural and scientific requirements. The major point which must first be clearly understood is that both the Earth's geology and the Scriptures tell us that Noah's flood could NOT have been responsible for the earth's extensive sedimentary, metamorphic, and igneous petrology. Freshman level knowledge of the Law of Superposition and field observations of Angular Unconformities in folded mountain sediments say otherwise. But more importantly, the Bible itself witnesses against these false "Creation Science"claims.
The notions of alleged major tectonic and/or volcanic activity at work during Noah's flood are conclusively shown to be false by the low levels of SO4 ions (acid) in the ice layers of the Greenland Ice Sheet, which can be correlated to the time of the flood. That same Ice Sheet contains a wealth of Paleoclimate data which show that all of earth's geologic history cannot be compacted into a 6,000-year time frame, especially when its layer history can be dated and traced back over a period in excess of 100,000 years and cross- verified with assorted proxy dating methods.
The full truth about Creation and Noah's flood for a faithful Bible Believer must fit all the observations and verses, not just some of them. The full truth is only revealed by a prayerful examination of the EXACT wording of the Scriptures, through the Spirit of Truth, and faith in those words combined with some common sense and reasoning (Isaiah 1:18). It also takes courage and trust in the Lord's Words and His wisdom, not yours, to see how it all fits together and standing against the majority position in such matters when necessary. You cannot disregard the full truth revealed by Genesis 1:2 and remain in denial, hiding your head in the sands of traditional interpretation.
Remember, in order to effectively witness to the lost, we must be able to demonstrate to the unsaved scientist or intellectual that one does not have to give up his/her brain to believe in Jesus and the Bible; to tell them that God published so that they would not perish. (Let the reader understand the play on the metaphor.) If you can deal with the facts on their turf and show them you know what you are talking about, then you have a better chance to convince them of their need for Jesus. An honest interpretation of the Scriptures and unprejudiced consideration of the geologic data will enable the Bible Believer to effectively witness.
In the next chapter we'll discuss some interesting things about the physical sciences and the number seven (7), a number that God uses many times in the Bible.


[h=3]The Firmament, Third Heaven, and Structure of Things Biblical[/h]

 

[Wick Stick]

Interesting. Got any pics?

No, sir. Photography was strictly forbidden by the nice gentleman (with the fully automatic assault rifle) who drove the humvee. Helluva drive, too. That road has grading that anything less than a military vehicle would not handle. We had 3 wheels on the ground quite a bit.

Anyway, you can't take that tour. The Golan Heights area is strategically important to the Israeli military. We were allowed because (a) it was 1994, and (b) we knew someone who knew someone.

If you'd like, though, you can go skiing there. There's a very nice resort on the southwest side of the mountain. You can probably get half the view from there.

 

[Wick Stick]

Just because he posted a smiley sticking his tongue out does not mean he was kidding about the statements he made. I took it more like as if to say, "I have my own evidence from personal experience, "... So I suppose if and when WS comes back he can fill us all in about whether his statement is true, or whether he was just kidding, but it does not sound made up to me.

The statement was true. The smiley was just because I knew how it would be received, and was hoping to keep the tone light (so much for that...)

 

[Wick Stick]

You know, it's not that difficult to see the curvature of the earth. Take the window seat on a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific flight on a clear day.

 

[patrick jane]

You know, it's not that difficult to see the curvature of the earth. Take the window seat on a trans-Atlantic or trans-Pacific flight on a clear day.

You can talk all about that in the Conspiracy thread or Dave's thread. Prove your points with scripture in this thread. You know, it's not that difficult to see that on a day or night. Think you can do that?

Sent from my SM-J327T using Tapatalk

 

[patrick jane]

Psalm 19 - KJV - The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4 Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5 Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6 His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7 The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the Lord is sure, making wise the simple.
8 The statutes of the Lord are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the Lord is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9 The fear of the Lord is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether.
10 More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11 Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12 Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13 Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14 Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O Lord, my strength, and my redeemer.

 

[daqq]

No, sir. Photography was strictly forbidden by the nice gentleman (with the fully automatic assault rifle) who drove the humvee. Helluva drive, too. That road has grading that anything less than a military vehicle would not handle. We had 3 wheels on the ground quite a bit.

Anyway, you can't take that tour. The Golan Heights area is strategically important to the Israeli military. We were allowed because (a) it was 1994, and (b) we knew someone who knew someone.

If you'd like, though, you can go skiing there. There's a very nice resort on the southwest side of the mountain. You can probably get half the view from there.

:thumb: Thanks.

 

[daqq]

The statement was true. The smiley was just because I knew how it would be received, and was hoping to keep the tone light (so much for that...)

Ahah, my smiley interpretation skills remain intact. :chuckle:

 

[Wick Stick]

You can talk all about that in the Conspiracy thread or Dave's thread. Prove your points with scripture in this thread. You know, it's not that difficult to see that on a day or night. Think you can do that?

I don't see the point in limiting the scope of my arguments, when nobody else (including yourself) is doing so.

I am not a great believer in rules, anyway.

(That'd be a no.)

 

[daqq]

The Book of Enoch Translated by George H. Schodde (1882)
The Book of Enoch ~ Chapter 1
1:1 1:1 The words of the blessing of Enoch where-with he blessed the chosen and just, who will	RHC	RL
1:2 exist on the day of tribulation when all the wicked and impious shall be removed.1:2 And then answered and spoke Enoch, a just man, whose eyes were opened by God so that he saw a holy vision in the heavens, which the angels showed to me, and from them I heard everything, and I knew what I saw, but not for this generation, but for the far-off generations which are	RHC	RL
1:3 to come.1:3 Concerning the chosen I spoke and conversed concerning them with the Holy and Great One, who will come from his abode,	RHC	RL
1:4the God of the world.1:4 And from there he will step on to Mount Sinai, and appear with his hosts, and appear in the strength of his power from heaven.	RHC	RL
1:5 1:5 And all will fear, and the watchers will tremble, and great fear and terror will seize them to the ends of the earth.	RHC	RL
1:6 1:6 And the exalted mountains will be shaken, and the high hills will be lowered, and will melt like wax before the flame.	RHC	RL
1:7 1:7 And the earth will be submerged, and everything that is on the earth will be destroyed, and there will be a judgment upon every thing, and upon all the just.	RHC	RL
1:8 1:8 But to the just he will give peace, and will protect the chosen, and mercy will abide over them, and they will all be God, and will be prosperous and blessed, and the light of God will shine for them.	RHC	RL
1:9 1:9 And behold, he comes with myriads of the holy to pass judgment upon them, and will destroy the impious, and will call to account all flesh for everything the sinners and the impious have done and committed against him.	RHC	RL
The Book of Enoch ~ Chapter 2 {Top}
2:1 2:1 I observed everything that took place in the heavens, how the luminaries, which are in the heavens, do not depart from their paths, that each one rises and sets in order, each in its time, and	RHC	RL
2:2 they do not depart from their laws.2:2 See the earth and observe the things that are done on it, from the first to the last, how no work of God is irregular in appearing.	RHC	RL
2:3 2:3 See the summer and the winter, how then the whole earth is full of water, and clouds and dew and rain rest over it.	RHC	RL
The Book of Enoch ~ Chapter 3 {Top}
3:1 3:1 I observed and saw how then all the trees appeared as if withered, and all their leaves are shaken off, except fourteen trees, whose leaves are not shaken off, but which abide with the old from two to three years, till the new come.	RHC	RL
The Book of Enoch ~ Chapter 4 {Top}
4:1 4:1 And again I observed the days of summer, how the sun is then above it [i.e. the earth], opposite to it, but ye seek cool and shady places on account of the heat of the sun, and the earth also burns with fervent heat, but

From the same translation look what 1Enoch 18:3-4a says about the pillars of the heavens:

1Enoch 18:1-4a G. H. Schodde 1882

18:1 And I saw the repositories of all the winds, and I saw how he had ornamented all the creation	RHC	RL
18:2 and the foundations of the earth with them.18:2 And I saw the corner-stone of the earth, and I saw the four	RHC	RL
18:3 winds which support the earth and the firmament of the heavens.18:3 And I saw how the winds expand the heights of the heavens; and they remained between heaven and earth, and they are pillars	RHC	RL
18:4 of heaven.

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_GHS.html#18

And the other translations say the same more clearly:

1Enoch 18:1-4a R. Lawrence 1883

18:1 I then surveyed the receptacles of all the winds, perceiving that they contributed to adorn the whole creation,	GHS	RHC
18:2 and to preserve the foundation of the earth. 18:2I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth.	GHS	RHC
18:3 I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven. And I beheld the winds occupying the exalted sky. Arising in the midst of heaven and of earth, and constituting the pillars	GHS	RHC
18:4 of heaven.

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RL.html#18

1Enoch 18:1-3 R. H. Charles 1912
18 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation and the firm foundations of the earth. 2 And I saw the cornerstone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear the earth and the firmament of the heaven. 3 And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven.
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#18

This passage says that the four winds are the pillars of the heavens. In its original state it likely said something more like that the four winds bear upon the earth and bear up the firmament of the heavens. The four winds thus stretch out the vault of the heavens and have their stations between the heavens and the earth because they are the four pillars of the heavens. That actually says nothing about whether the earth is a globe or flat. However this thinking does not work on the flat earth model because the four winds are the compass points, north, south, east, and west, and the land masses on the flat earth model to not correspond properly or evenly to the four compass points, (for example, where would you place "the pillar of the south" when Antarctica is supposedly an ice wall encircling the entire earth?).

Moreover the four pillars of the heavens are expounded in the Torah: they are the four pillars upon which the heavens are hanged, and that is because the veil between the Holy Place and the Holy Holies or Most Holy represents the heavens. Josephus tells us that the veil contained all things mystical in the heavens, with the exception of the twelve signs of the zodiac, (because they are represented by living creatures). Thus "the powers of the heavens" were indeed shaken in the great earthquake at Golgotha, just as the Master said they would be, that is to say, the four pillars upon which the veil was hanged, (Isa6:1-4 also foreshadows this event using the great earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah). When the veil was rent from the top to the bottom it had the sun, the moon, and the seven great stars or planets upon it: and the stars of the heavens fell to the earth with the veil which fell from its four pillars when it was torn in two. It is all symbolism, and again, all fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha.

The veil itself, when it was torn, was rolled up like a scroll and like a garment.

 

[patrick jane]

From the same translation look what 1Enoch 18:3-4a says about the pillars of the heavens:

1Enoch 18:1-4a G. H. Schodde 1882

18:1 And I saw the repositories of all the winds, and I saw how he had ornamented all the creation	RHC	RL
18:2 and the foundations of the earth with them.18:2 And I saw the corner-stone of the earth, and I saw the four	RHC	RL
18:3 winds which support the earth and the firmament of the heavens.18:3 And I saw how the winds expand the heights of the heavens; and they remained between heaven and earth, and they are pillars	RHC	RL
18:4 of heaven.

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_GHS.html#18

And the other translations say the same more clearly:

1Enoch 18:1-4a R. Lawrence 1883

18:1 I then surveyed the receptacles of all the winds, perceiving that they contributed to adorn the whole creation,	GHS	RHC
18:2 and to preserve the foundation of the earth. 18:2I surveyed the stone which supports the corners of the earth.	GHS	RHC
18:3 I also beheld the four winds, which bear up the earth, and the firmament of heaven. And I beheld the winds occupying the exalted sky. Arising in the midst of heaven and of earth, and constituting the pillars	GHS	RHC
18:4 of heaven.

http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RL.html#18

1Enoch 18:1-3 R. H. Charles 1912
18 I saw the treasuries of all the winds: I saw how He had furnished with them the whole creation and the firm foundations of the earth. 2 And I saw the cornerstone of the earth: I saw the four winds which bear the earth and the firmament of the heaven. 3 And I saw how the winds stretch out the vaults of heaven, and have their station between heaven and earth: these are the pillars of the heaven.
http://www.summascriptura.com/html/Enoch_1_RHC.htm#18

Moreover the four pillars of the heavens are expounded in the Torah: they are the four pillars upon which the heavens are hanged, and that is because the veil between the Holy Place and the Holy Holies or Most Holy represents the heavens. Josephus tells us that the veil contained all things mystical in the heavens, with the exception of the twelve signs of the zodiac, (because they are represented by living creatures). Thus "the powers of the heavens" were indeed shaken in the great earthquake at Golgotha, just as the Master said they would be, that is to say, the four pillars upon which the veil was hanged, (Isa6:1-4 also foreshadows this event using the great earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah). When the veil was rent from the top to the bottom it had the sun, the moon, and the seven great stars or planets upon it: and the stars of the heavens fell to the earth with the veil which fell from its four pillars when it was torn in two. It is all symbolism, and again, all fulfilled in Messiah at Golgotha.

Nope, I don't see where "it wouldn't work" on flat earth at all. Nice try though. I'll stick to MY interpretations, not yours or your favorite authors. He saw the foundations and the pillars of earth. That settles it for me, flat enclosed earth and firmament, just like God tells us. The sun runs the race, not the immovable, fixed, established earth, which is the tabernacle FOR the sun.

 

[daqq]

Nope, I don't see where "it wouldn't work" on flat earth at all. Nice try though. I'll stick to MY interpretations, not yours or your favorite authors.

I referenced much more from the scripture than the simple fact that Josephus tells us what was on the veil, (and there is no reason to doubt what Josephus says about that). The majority of what you reject as "my favorite authors" includes Exodus, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Hebrews, Revelation, and a host of other statements and passages from the Prophets and even the Master himself, who tells you the timing of the Olivet Discourse at the very end of the discourse in the Matthew version, in the punch-line statement for the whole passage which answers their very own question of the timing from the beginning of that same discourse. Again, it is not me you are rejecting, but indeed, "my favorite authors", (from the scripture). :chuckle:

 

[patrick jane]

I referenced much more from the scripture than the simple fact that Josephus tells us what was on the veil, (and there is no reason to doubt what Josephus says about that). The majority of what you reject as "my favorite authors" includes Exodus, Isaiah, Matthew, Mark, Luke, Hebrews, Revelation, and a host of other statements and passages from the Prophets and even the Master himself, who tells you the timing of the Olivet Discourse at the very end of the discourse in the Matthew version, in the punch-line statement for the whole passage which answers their very own question of the timing from the beginning of that same discourse. Again, it is not me you are rejecting, but indeed, "my favorite authors", (from the scripture). :chuckle:

Your schtick is going around from thread to thread "proving" people wrong. The fact is, 4 directions are on a flat earth too, even the four corners and/or the four quarters. I have describe the "model" that I have in my head and shown it with images and explanations with and without scripture. Your goal in this thread is to discredit flat enclosed earth and firmament any way you can, you've made that clear. Please share your interpretations anytime, but don't say with every post "see, flat earth won't work" unless you have definitive proof or evidence.

And I meant your favorite interpreters. Do you think I'm saying the wind comes from the ice wall, the south? the south pole and much land is beyond the wall in the south, same as the the north east and west. You make no sense. Flat earth has all four, the GLOBE DOES NOT.

 

[daqq]

The veil between the Holy Place and the Most Holy Place was about the thickness of a handbreadth, that is, about three and a half to four inches thick, a literal solid expanse or division, a veritable firmament, (made by the work of the cunning embroiderer with Cherubim), and it had the sun, moon, and stars embroidered in it. Thus the sun, moon, and stars were in the heavens or firmament which is what the veil itself represents, (the barrier between man and Elohim, which has now been removed in Messiah who is the Advocate and High Priest between man and Elohim).

 

[daqq]

Your schtick is going around from thread to thread "proving" people wrong. The fact is, 4 directions are on a flat earth too, even the for corners and/or the four quarters. I have describe the "model" that I have in my head and shown it with images and explanations with and without scripture. Your goal in this thread is to discredit flat enclosed earth and firmament any way you can, you've made that clear. Please share your interpretations anytime, but don't say with every post "see, flat earth won't work" unless you have definitive proof or evidence.

And I meant you favorite interpreters.Do you I'm saying the wind comes from the ice wall, the south? the south pole and much land is beyond the wall in the south, same as the the north east and west. You make no sense. Flat earth has all four the GLOBE DOES NOT.

My "interpreter" is the Word: I neither know of nor follow any other.
Perhaps that is why so many here cannot hear what I say?