Bethlehem: 'out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel'

beameup

New member
Bs"d

The suffering servant of Isaiah 53 is not the messiah, it is ISRAEL.

For Biblical support for that fact look here: http://Isaiah53.notlong.com

That's because you know nothing of your past. All 1st century Jewish theology has be deleted. The "religion" was completely recreated following the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. when you fell under God's JUDGMENT (gee, I wonder why?).

Here is the Isaiah 53 Jewish "theology" that you have today:
1) you are being punished by God
2) your soul is being made an offering for sin
3) your soul sees travail
4) you are "justifying many"
5) you are "baring their iniquities"?
6) you soul is being poured out unto death
7) you are bearing the sins of many

As well, these last 2,000 years, you are supposed to be "saving" Gentiles by promoting your 7 NoHide Laws.
 

Elia

Well-known member
That's because you know nothing of your past. All 1st century Jewish theology has be deleted. The "religion" was completely recreated following the destruction of the Temple in 70 A.D. when you fell under God's JUDGMENT (gee, I wonder why?).

Bs"d

For the same reason the first Temple got destroyed.

Here is the Isaiah 53 Jewish "theology" that you have today:
1) you are being punished by God
2) your soul is being made an offering for sin
3) your soul sees travail
4) you are "justifying many"
5) you are "baring their iniquities"?
6) you soul is being poured out unto death
7) you are bearing the sins of many

As well, these last 2,000 years, you are supposed to be "saving" Gentiles by promoting your 7 NoHide Laws.

Bs"d

Here is why Isaiah 53 is NOT speaking about the messiah:

“Behold, my servant shall act wisely;” You believe this is JC. You believe JC is god. So God is his own servant?

When God speaks about "His servant", is God then speaking about himself or about somebody else?
Hint: A three year old can come up with the right answer.


“his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance, and his form beyond that of the children of mankind”

When did that happen to JC?



“a man of sorrows, and acquainted with sickness” When exactly was JC sick?



“Like one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not.”

Wasn’t JC a very popular preacher who entered Jerusalem amongst a big crowd of followers?


“He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth;”

He didn’t open his mouth? "When Jesus said this, one of the officials nearby struck him in the face. "Is this the way you answer the high priest?" he demanded. "If I said something wrong," Jesus replied, "testify as to what is wrong. But if I spoke the truth, why did you strike me?" John 18:22

When he was hanging at the cross he accused God, that is himself; he cried out: “Why did I forsake myself?”

“At the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, "MY GOD, MY GOD, WHY HAVE YOU FORSAKEN ME?" Mark 15:34

He didn’t open his mouth?



“for the transgression of my people the plague was upon them”

This is a very clear proof it speaks about the Jewish people being punished for their own sins. “The plague was upon THEM”. Plural. So this is not about a singular person, so this is not about the messiah.

The Hebrew word translated as “upon them” is “lamo” The same word “lamo” is also used in Genesis 9:26-27: “God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be THEIR servant."

Deut 32:32; “and THEIR clusters are bitter.” Literally: “For them are bitter clusters.”

Deut 32: 35 “and their destiny will overtake THEM”

Deut 33:2; “"The LORD came from Sinai and dawned OVER THEM from Seir;”

The word “lamo” which means “for them” or “upon them” is also used in Isaiah 16:4, 26:14+16, 35:8, Psalm 119:165.

Some translations, realizing they cannot get around the plural, translate it as: “for the transgression of my people, TO WHOM the stroke was due?” Like this it is translated by the NASB, AMP, ASV, and in the footnote of the NIV.

But this is a very forced translation. There is nothing “due” in verse 8.


“He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence”

Done no violence? “So he made a whip out of cords, and drove all from the temple area, both sheep and cattle; he scattered the coins of the money changers and overturned their tables.” John 2:15

A grave with the wicked? "When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathe'a, named Joseph, who also was a disciple of Jesus. He went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. Then Pilate ordered it to be given to him. And Joseph took the body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn in the rock; and he rolled a great stone to the door of the tomb, and departed " Matt 27:57-60

He was in the tomb of a righteous follower of his, and not in the grave with the wicked.


“And with the rich in his death” The Hebrew word for “death” is written in the plural, again indicating it does not speak about a singular person. Unless of course Christianity wants to say that their god died several times. If you say this talks about a whole people, then there is no problem.
But, if you want to say this speaks about the messiah, then you are in trouble.

And of course, this word is mistranslated in about every Christian translation to be found.



“Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief;” So it was the will of God to crush Himself???



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days” God makes himself an offering for sin? JC sees his offspring? How is he going to do that? He was never married, he never had any offspring.



“He shall prolong his days”
God is going to prolong his days when he makes himself an offering for sin? And if he doesn’t, God is not going to prolong his days?
But didn’t God die when he was 30?



“when he makes his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring”
God needs to make himself an offering in order to be able to forgive his creatures? God first has to be murdered by his creatures, and only then he can forgive them?



“Therefore I will divide him a portion with the many, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong” God is going to give Himself a portion with the strong? When exactly did JC get that?

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

Elia

Well-known member
So, God promised to send Messiah in the 1st century A.D. and He forgot?

Bs"d

Your messiah promised to come back 2000 years ago, and he forgot?? :confused:

Let us take a look at the prophetic qualities of Jesus.

In Matthew 4:17 he claims that the kingdom of heaven is at hand..

Now, almost 2000 years later, the kingdom is still not here.

This claim of Jesus to return soon in order to judge the whole world is all over the New Testament. Look for instance in Revelations 1:1-3, idem 3:11, idem 22:6, 10-12, 20. Everywhere here is spoken about a soon return and the early Christian communities were expecting the return of Christ in their lifetimes, as we can read in I Corinthians 7:29, Romans 13:11-12, and I Peter 4:7. Their belief in a return of Christ in their lifetimes was based upon very clear, not to be misunderstood statements of Jesus. Look for an impressive prophesy in Mark 13:24-30: "The sun shall be darkened and the moon shall not give her light. And the stars of heaven will fall and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then he shall send his angels and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven ….. Verily I say to you, that this generation shall not pass till all these things be done." -----See also Matthew 24:29-35 and Luke 21;25-33. .

This generation passed away almost 2000 years ago, and no one has seen him coming back on the clouds to establish his kingdom of peace and gather in his elected Christians.



In Matthew 16:27-28 Jesus says: "For the son of man shall come in the glory of his father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works. Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here which shall not taste of death till they see the son of man coming in his kingdom." See also Mark 9:1

Did anybody see him coming in his kingdom? Is every man already rewarded according to his works?... But some of them would not die until they would have seen him coming in his kingdom!...Are they still around today?....Even Methuselah didn't live that long!

From this we must conclude that Jesus has a very poor resume as a prophet. What does the Holy Torah that the only eternal G.d gave to the Jewish people say about this?

Deuteronomy 18:20-22: "But the prophet which shall presume to speak a word in my name which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if you say in your heart; how shall we know the word that the LORD has not spoken? When a prophet speaks in the name of the LORD, if the thing follows not, nor come to pass, this is the thing that the LORD has not spoken, but the prophet has spoken it presumptuously, you shall not be afraid of him."


"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
 

daqq

Well-known member
Hey Eider, ultimately I really do not go in that direction, (a purely physical historical understanding, though it is important), but I do know some good resources which I think you might appreciate. In fact once you begin to read through this one, which I will link below, many other things will begin to become apparent as far as what to search for and after that I think you will not have much problem finding what else you might decide to chase down. This one for starters though, just so you know, is not of the Trinitarian mindset, (don't know if that matters to you or not but just letting you know in case it does). Messiah Jesus and John the Baptist (Robert Eisler). Happy hunting. :)


---------------------------------------------------------


The answers to some of these things have been addressed elsewhere in one or more of the links provided above herein. However it is clear that you would not believe me even if I took three or four large posts to explain it all to you, (for the veil over the eyes, heart, and mind, concerning such things, is only done away in Messiah, that is, the Testimony of Yeshua Meshiah). Secondly you are placing your trust in the Masorete pointed Hebrew text which points you in the wrong direction concerning the word you say cannot be "potter" and this is clear by the fact that when read without the pointing the block letters mean potter, former, molder, and so on. Your fathers have therefore simply pointed you in the wrong direction. Thirdly most English translations do not recognize the true length of the quote from Zechariah in Matthew, (it is much shorter), and the fact that this Matthew is the same who was "appointed", (as the Matthew passage states), in the place of Judas according to the companion passage at the end of Acts 1. In the Matthew quote from Zechariah the quote ends before the mention of the children or sons of Yisrael because that portion is obviously not found anywhere in Jeremiah of Zechariah.

However I will give you one clue, and even that I know you will not believe so, therefore, one and only one: Yhudas Yskariy "off'ed" himself in the same place formerly known as the valley of the son of Hinnom, that is, Tophet, (the place of the Fall), and indeed, becoming headlong, he fell and burst asunder in the midst, and all the inwards gushed out. Therefore the prophecy both begins and ends in Jeremiah; and Matthew is therefore correct, and you are therefore blind. :)

Hey Eider, if you are still around, have you read any of that PDF file by Robert Eisler? If so let me know what you think if you happen back by this way. :)
 

Elia

Well-known member
Prove it. Where is your Jewish source for this?

Bs"d

As usual, when you ask him for a source, only silence remains.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

beameup

New member
Rabbi Shlomo ben Itzhak, "Rashi" 1040-1105 understood it to be Messianic.
His origins are from ancient times, from ‘before the sun was, his name was Yinnon.’

Since 70 A.D. your "religious authorities" have destroyed BCE Jewish documents. Gee, I wonder why?
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

As usual, when you ask him for a source, only silence remains.

I noticed you ignored how this thread has been hijacked by :kookoo: spammers, such as daqq.
You have been "asleep at the wheel". Actually, you-all have been "asleep at the wheel" for 2,000 years.
 

beameup

New member
Bs'd

And where can I find that comment of Rashi?
What I wonder is if you have some proof for this nonsense. Probably not, as usual.

Those that are blind will find it hard to escape from a paper bag.

For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
He has shut your eyes - the prophets
[you haven't had any prophets for 2 millennia]
And He has covered your heads - the seers
[you haven't had any seers for 2 millennia] - Isaiah 29:10

The entire vision [Tanakh] will be to you like the words of a sealed book,
which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, “Please read this,”
he will say, “I cannot, for it is sealed.”
[your scriptures are SEALED to you]
Then the book [Tanakh] will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying,
“Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”
[your "rabbis" don't have a clue] - Isaiah 29:11-12
 

Elia

Well-known member
Bs"d

As usually you are not getting the point.

I bring Micha 5 in my list of messianic prophecies. Nobody denies that Micha 5 speaks about the messiah, so it is useless to start bringing Jewish commentators who say it speaks about the messiah.

What is a fact however, is that the Tanach doesn't say that the messiah is from eternity. It says he is from days of old.
I explain that very clearly in post #7. Read that, and you'll see.

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d

As usually you are not getting the point.

I bring Micha 5 in my list of messianic prophecies. Nobody denies that Micha 5 speaks about the messiah, so it is useless to start bringing Jewish commentators who say it speaks about the messiah.

What is a fact however, is that the Tanach doesn't say that the messiah is from eternity. It says he is from days of old.
Changing the original meanings of Hebrew words to "cover-up" any possible MESSIANIC passages has been the goal of neo-Jewdism since 70 A.D. Moses wouldn't even recognize your "religion".

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14
 

Elia

Well-known member
Changing the original meanings of Hebrew words to "cover-up" any possible MESSIANIC passages has been the goal of neo-Jewdism since 70 A.D. Moses wouldn't even recognize your "religion".

Bs"d

It is Christianity which is changing the meaning of the Hebrew words.

They always translate it correct, except in Micha 5.

I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14

Interesting, what's your point?

"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
 

beameup

New member
Bs"d
It is Christianity which is changing the meaning of the Hebrew words.
They always translate it correct, except in Micha 5.
Interesting, what's your point?

I'm just demonstrating, through your example, the truth of what God said concerning your spiritual blindness.

For the LORD has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
He has shut your eyes, the prophets
[you haven't had a prophet for 2,000 years]
And He has covered your heads, the seers. [you haven't had a seer for 2,000 years] - Isaiah 29:10
 

Elia

Well-known member
I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed. - Daniel 7:13-14

Bs"d

And again, a Christian is bringing a messianic prophecy NOT fulfilled by JC, in order to "prove" that he was the messiah.

But the fact that the real messianic prophecies are NOT fulfilled is of course proof of the fact that the messiah didn't come yet.

Why believe in a messiah who didn't fulfil the messianic prophecies?? :confused:
 
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