Bethlehem: 'out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel'
- Thread starter beameup
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beameup
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The rabbis certainly are in total agreement on those "seemingly" messianic passages that they want nothing to do with because it doesn't fit their "pre-conceived" notions of what they want in a messiah.
I understand that the rabbis have agreed that Isaiah 53 concerns the Jewish people. They say that, according to Isaiah 53 your soul was made an offering for sin and that you were cut off out of the land of the living, among other things. One might deduce that it is Jews that have the "Messianic Complex".
Ben Masada
New member
Bethlehem, out of thee shall he come forth unto Me that is to be ruler in Israel. Most definitely, this quote is a reference to David who was born in Bethlehem and became a king in Israel. As we all know, Jesus was never a ruler in Israel.
beameup
New member
I think you missed the last phrase where it mentions "everlasting".
Is it commonplace among Jews to gloss-over God-inspired prophetic messages? :sherlock:
"whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting".
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Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
The messiah is not from "everlasting".
You too fell victim to corrupted Christian Bible translations.
Micah 5:2
New American Standard Bible "But as for you, Bethlehem Ephrathah, Too little to be among the clans of Judah, From you One will go forth for Me to be ruler in Israel His goings forth are from long ago, From the days of eternity."
Holman Christian Standard Bible " Bethlehem Ephrathah, you are small among the clans of Judah; One will come from you to be ruler over Israel for Me. His origin is from antiquity, from eternity.
New Life Version "His coming was planned long ago, from the beginning."
Darby Translation "whose goings forth are from of old, from the days of eternity."
American Standard Version "whose goings forth are from of old, from everlasting."
All versions of the King James: "whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting."
Amplified Bible "Whose goings forth have been from of old, from ancient days (eternity).
All the above translation say the origins of the messiah are from "everlasting" or from "eternity", hereby implying that the messiah is God.
The Hebrew words here translated with "from everlasting" or "days of eternity" are "yamei olaam", which means literally "ancient days".
Many Bible translations translate it like that, only the above hold on to "days of eternity", or something with the same implications, because they want to push the wrong Christian idea that the messiah is God himself.
However, also the above translations know how to correctly translate the words "yamei olaam". We see that for instance in Micah 7:14, were the same expression "yamei olaam" is used. See here how the above translate it there:
Holman Christian Standard Bible " Let them graze in Bashan and Gilead as in ancient times."
New Life Version "Let them eat in Bashan and Gilead as in days long ago."
Darby Translation "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old. "
American Standard Version "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."
King James: "let them feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."
New American Standard Bible "Let them feed in Bashan and Gilead As in the days of old."
Amplified Bible "they shall feed in Bashan and Gilead, as in the days of old."
Another place where the expression "yamei olaam" is used, is in Isaiah 63:11
Holman Christian Standard Bible " Then He remembered the days of the past, [the days] of Moses [and] his people."
New Life Version "Then His people remembered the days long ago, the days of Moses."
Darby Translation "But he remembered the days of old, Moses [and] his people:"
American Standard Version "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses and his people,"
King James: "Then he remembered the days of old, Moses, and his people,"
New American Standard Bible "Then His people remembered the days of old, of Moses"
Amplified Bible "Then His people [seriously] remembered the days of old, of Moses and his people"
Another place where the expression "yamei olaam" is used is Amos 9:11
Holman Christian Standard Bible "In that day I will restore the fallen booth of David: I will repair its gaps,
restore its ruins, and rebuild it as in the days of old,"
New Life Version "In that day I will build again the tent of David that fell down. Yes, I will build it again from the stones that fell down. I will set it up again as it used to be."
Darby Translation "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"
American Standard Version "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old;"
King James: "and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"
Amplified Bible "and I will raise up its ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old,"
New American Standard Bible "I will also raise up its ruins And rebuild it as in the days of old;"
Another place where the expression "yamei olaam" is used is in Malachi 3:4
Holman Christian Standard Bible "And the offerings of Judah and Jerusalem will please the LORD as in days of old and years gone by"
New Life Version "Then the gifts of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the Lord, as they were in the past."
Darby Translation "Then shall the oblation of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in former years."
American Standard Version "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto J-e-h-o-v-a-h, as in the days of old, and as in ancient years. "
King James: "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the LORD, as in the days of old, and as in former years."
Amplified Bible "hen will the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasing to the Lord as in the days of old and as in ancient years."
New American Standard Bible ""Then the offering of Judah and Jerusalem will be pleasing to the LORD as in the days of old and as in former years."
It should be clear by now for everybody that the expression "yamei olaam" has no bearing on "days of eternity" whatsoever.
It is always translated correct, except there where Christianity wants to push it's dogma of a divine messiah. There the translations are corrupted in order to squeeze in JC.
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
So my above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you guys think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
So my above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you guys think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Ben Masada
New member
Even if Jesus had been from everlasting to everlasting, it would not apply because the main point is that the one born in Bethlehem/Ephratah would become a ruler in Israel and Jesus never became one. Besides,thousands of Jews were born in Bethlehem/Ephratah and none but David became a ruler in Israel.
Now, with regards to Psalm 110:1,2, that Psalm was written by David to be chanted in the Temple by the Levites and, it was originally written thus: "The Lord said unto me, sit at My right hand until I make of thine enemies thy footstool." It would be awkward for the Levites to sing: "The Lord said unto Me." So, an adaptation was in order which came out thus: "The Lord (God) said to my lord (David), sit at My right hand until I make of your enemies your footstools." What happened was that the Fathers of the Church in the 4th Century forged the text with the intent to promote the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology. It was so that both words "Lord" came out capitalized.
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beameup
New member
Original Post:
It seems that there is absolutely NO "consensus" on ANY verse that could be construed to apply to MESSIAH. It then follows that YOU HAVE NO "MESSIAH", or that any slick-tongued personage could fill the imaginary "position" created by post-70 A.D. "Judaism".
It seems that there is absolutely NO "consensus" on ANY verse that could be construed to apply to MESSIAH. It then follows that YOU HAVE NO "MESSIAH", or that any slick-tongued personage could fill the imaginary "position" created by post-70 A.D. "Judaism".
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
My above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way you Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
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beameup
New member
What do you think of Judaism's rabbis not having any "clue" as to what this passage means... what is it about "there is no consensus about this passage among rabbis" that you don't understand.
So, instead, you deflect from the original post and virtually "throw dust up in the air" trying to avoid the obvious conclusion that your "religion" is CLUELESS. :hammer:
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Can you please answer this question:
My above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way you Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
beameup
New member
Your rabbis have no consensus to the meaning of the passage in HEBREW.
Is that the way you Jews "operate"?
BTW, there are MANY Hebrew speaking Messianic Jews right there in Israel who are not "blinded and confused" when they read the Tanakh.
You must think we are ignorant and cannot check the authenticity of your responses.
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
Well, it is clear that Beameup is not going to answer my questions.
So therefore I put this question to all the Christians here, maybe then somebody can answer:
My above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you guys think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Well, it is clear that Beameup is not going to answer my questions.
So therefore I put this question to all the Christians here, maybe then somebody can answer:
My above post clearly shows that those above mentioned translations always translate the words "yamei olam" correct as "days of old" or something like that, only Micha 5:2 where they think they can apply it to their messiah, there they change it to "days of eternity", "everlasting" or something like that, and we see that for instance Beameup is going astray because of these corrupted translations.
What do you guys think of Christian Bible translators falsifying their translations, in order to deceive the reader?
Is that the way Christians operate?
"O Y-H-W-H, my strength and my fortress, my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come to You from the ends of the earth and say, 'Surely our fathers have inherited lies, worthlessness and unprofitable things.' Will a man make gods for himself, which are not gods?"
Jeremiah 16:19
Elia
Well-known member
Bs"d
I see you are not getting the point.
Read post #7 again, slowly. If necessary, multiple times. It is not so complicated.
"For all people will walk every one in the name of his god, and we will walk in the name of Y-H-W-H our God for ever and ever."
Micah 4:5
Ben Masada
New member
"We have no Messiah!" You are right. We don't need one because we are the one. If you read Prophet Habakkuk 3:13, "The Lord goes forth to save His People; to save His Anointed One." That's what the Messiah is, the Anointed One of the Lord. The Messiah cannot be an individual. The individual is born, lives his span of life and dies. Are we to expect a new Messiah in every generation? Obviously not. Besides, the Messiah does not die. It is to remain as a People before the Lord forever. (Jeremiah 31:35-37) That's what Mark Twain meant in his "Essay about the Jews" aka the immortal Jew.
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Matthew 2:4-6 KJV
(4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.
(4) And when he had gathered all the chief priests and scribes of the people together, he demanded of them where Christ should be born.
(5) And they said unto him, In Bethlehem of Judaea: for thus it is written by the prophet,
(6) And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.