Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[JudgeRightly]

I'm just trying to show you boys that Paul was NOT telling us we had to confess with our mouth.

I realize it's hard to toss out old Kingdom commands, but you really need to look at those prophecies Paul is quoting.
They were to confess that Jesus was their Messiah. This is really very simple. It was an absolute dividing line between unbelieving Israel and the remnant (believing Israel).

John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

I think you need to read the context of verses 9 and 10 of chapter 10 of Romans.

Here it is, plain text, and after you read it here, I'll post it again, showing you the sentence within a sentence that Bob likes to use in the Plot:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above )or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:5-13&version=NKJV

Did you catch it?

Here it is again, highlighting the relevant portions:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above )or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:5-13&version=NKJV

"The righteousness of faith speaks this way: [ . . . ]. But what does it say? [ . . . ]: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Glory, what is "the righteousness of faith"?

Does it have anything to do with the law? Or is Paul contrasting "the righteousness of faith" against Moses' "righteousness which is of the law", and using Old Testament scriptures that show that faith was necessary (in addition to law) to be "saved" (I'm using that term loosely here), to make his point for those in the Body of Christ he is speaking to that we are saved by faith alone, and not works?

In other words, have you considered that Paul is co-opting scriptures meant for Israel and their "faith + works"-based program to support his "faith alone" gospel?

 

[Clete]

I don't mind looking ridiculous.

Well, you ought to.

I'm just trying to show you boys that Paul was NOT telling us we had to confess with our mouth.

I realize it's hard to toss out old Kingdom commands, but you really need to look at those prophecies Paul is quoting.
They were to confess that Jesus was their Messiah. This is really very simple. It was an absolute dividing line between unbelieving Israel and the remnant (believing Israel).

John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

Repeating yourself doesn't do a thing to respond to what I've already said in response to this, glorydaz! You sound like a broken record.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I don't mind looking ridiculous.
I'm just trying to show you boys that Paul was NOT telling us we had to confess with our mouth.

I realize it's hard to toss out old Kingdom commands, but you really need to look at those prophecies Paul is quoting.
They were to confess that Jesus was their Messiah. This is really very simple. It was an absolute dividing line between unbelieving Israel and the remnant (believing Israel).

John 12:42
Nevertheless among the chief rulers also many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess him, lest they should be put out of the synagogue:

What's more, regarding the Body of Christ:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. - Romans 10:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:12&version=NKJV

 

[glorydaz]

I think you need to read the context of verses 9 and 10 of chapter 10 of Romans.

Here it is, plain text, and after you read it here, I'll post it again, showing you the sentence within a sentence that Bob likes to use in the Plot:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above )or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:5-13&version=NKJV

Did you catch it?

Here it is again, highlighting the relevant portions:

For Moses writes about the righteousness which is of the law, “The man who does those things shall live by them.”But the righteousness of faith speaks in this way, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ down from above )or, “ ‘Who will descend into the abyss?’ ” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead).But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach):that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.”For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” - Romans 10:5-13 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:5-13&version=NKJV

"The righteousness of faith speaks this way: [ . . . ]. But what does it say? [ . . . ]: that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."

Glory, what is "the righteousness of faith"?

Does it have anything to do with the law? Or is Paul contrasting "the righteousness of faith" against Moses' "righteousness which is of the law", and using Old Testament scriptures that show that faith was necessary (in addition to law) to be "saved" (I'm using that term loosely here), to make his point for those in the Body of Christ he is speaking to that we are saved by faith alone, and not works?

In other words, have you considered that Paul is co-opting scriptures meant for Israel and their "faith + works"-based program to support his "faith alone" gospel?

I've considered it, of course, and I see quite clearly where the remnant of faithful Israel fits into Paul's teachings in these three chapters of Romans. I've always known Israel is the focus of much of Paul's teachings, but verses such as we find smack dab in the middle of Paul's SUBJECT MATTER (Israel) is to make it clear that God has a plan for Israel. Always has. Paul quotes from Deut. 30, so what he is saying is not news to the Jews. The law is nigh to the Jews who had to memorize and recite different portions throughout their lifetime.

What is most important, though is what Jesus proclaimed to his disciples, and WHY He stressed the importance of a verbal confession (BEFORE MEN). It was the remnants' job to proclaim Jesus Christ to the unbelieving Jews. This is so elementary. They were the tribulation saints waiting for the coming of the Lord.

Matt. 10:32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.

Matt. 10:
16 Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
17 But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues;
18 And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles.
19 But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak.
20 For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.
21 And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death.
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
23 But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

Instead of adding to Paul's gospel this physical act of confessing with the mouth, just understand who Paul is talking to. Showing where Israel failed fits in with the surrounding chapters.

 

[glorydaz]

Well, you ought to.


Repeating yourself doesn't do a thing to respond to what I've already said in response to this, glorydaz! You sound like a broken record.

I can only dumb this down so much, Clete.

Rinse and repeat just like when I teach my dog new tricks.

 

[glorydaz]

What's more, regarding the Body of Christ:

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. - Romans 10:12 http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans10:12&version=NKJV

He says the same thing in Romans 2 concerning sin. You're making that about the body of Christ...but Paul is referring to Jews and Gentiles...not the body of Christ. Which, by the way, has been my point from the beginning.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

 

[Clete]

I can only dumb this down so much, Clete.

Rinse and repeat just like when I teach my dog new tricks.

You act like Nang.

Congratulations.

 

[Hoping]

He says the same thing in Romans 2 concerning sin. You're making that about the body of Christ...but Paul is referring to Jews and Gentiles...not the body of Christ. Which, by the way, has been my point from the beginning.

Romans 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

We today can sure take verse 12 to heart..."For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;"
That is a good verse to wreck the OSAS' liberality, and their lack of fear for their ongoing sins.

 

[glorydaz]

Musterion's "Warning Ban" is supposed to be up today.
It would sure be nice if I could hear what he thinks of this "adding on to Paul's gospel".




Faith is the only requirement under Grace.

Forgive others, confession of sins, repent, water baptism, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and even love your neighbor as yourself. All of those works are like the "Confess with your mouth" that Paul speaks of in Romans 10.

The Jews were to witness Jesus Christ was Lord. We know witnessing is done with the mouth. Believing Israel (Peter and the Little flock) did exactly that, and they got persecuted and imprisoned for doing so.

If we're going to claim to rightly divide, by jove, let's just do that. Who NEEDED to confess Jesus Christ was Lord?
It was required of the Jews. It was never required of the gentiles.

• Acts 2:32
  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
  
  
• Acts 3:15
  And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
  
  
• Acts 5:32
  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

 

[Hoping]

Musterion's "Warning Ban" is supposed to be up today.
It would sure be nice if I could hear what he thinks of this "adding on to Paul's gospel".




Faith is the only requirement under Grace.

Forgive others, confession of sins, repent, water baptism, turn the other cheek, love your enemies, and even love your neighbor as yourself. All of those works are like the "Confess with your mouth" that Paul speaks of in Romans 10.

The Jews were to witness Jesus Christ was Lord. We know witnessing is done with the mouth. Believing Israel (Peter and the Little flock) did exactly that, and they got persecuted and imprisoned for doing so.

If we're going to claim to rightly divide, by jove, let's just do that. Who NEEDED to confess Jesus Christ was Lord?
It was required of the Jews. It was never required of the gentiles.

• Acts 2:32
  This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
  
  
• Acts 3:15
  And killed the Prince of life, whom God hath raised from the dead; whereof we are witnesses.
  
  
• Acts 5:32
  And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Why were the "confess" verses written to the Romans then?
And it is required by everyone who really believes Jesus is the Son of God.

 

[glorydaz]

Why were the "confess" verses written to the Romans then?
And it is required by everyone who really believes Jesus is the Son of God.

Pay attention to who Paul is talking about....all through out Romans, I might add.
Which is why discernment is required when reading Paul.

Romans 2:
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

 

[Hoping]

Pay attention to who Paul is talking about....all through out Romans, I might add.
Which is why discernment is required when reading Paul.

Romans 2:
17 Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
18 And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
19 And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,
20 An instructor of the foolish, a teacher of babes, which hast the form of knowledge and of the truth in the law.
21 Thou therefore which teachest another, teachest thou not thyself? thou that preachest a man should not steal, dost thou steal?
22 Thou that sayest a man should not commit adultery, dost thou commit adultery? thou that abhorrest idols, dost thou commit sacrilege?
23 Thou that makest thy boast of the law, through breaking the law dishonourest thou God?

This is who Paul was writing to..."To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom 1:7)
He reiterates it in Rom 2:9-11..."Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
Verse11 should resonate with you.
Here is a bit more clarification to whom it is written..."For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29)
Jew and Greek are all one, in Christ's body.

Paul was writing to Christians.

 

[Hoping]

This is who Paul was writing to..."To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom 1:7)
He reiterates it in Rom 2:9-11..."Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
Verse11 should resonate with you.
Here is a bit more clarification to whom it is written..."For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29)
Jew and Greek are all one, in Christ's body.
Paul was writing to Christians.

 

[glorydaz]

This is who Paul was writing to..."To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." (Rom 1:7)
He reiterates it in Rom 2:9-11..."Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God."
Verse11 should resonate with you.
Here is a bit more clarification to whom it is written..."For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God." (Rom 2:28-29)
Jew and Greek are all one, in Christ's body.

Paul was writing to Christians.

ABOUT the Jews. Is this really so hard for you to understand?


Unbelieving Jews, - those who rejected Christ as the Messiah. Paul was in that group before he got saved.

Believing Jews, - those who confessed Christ as the Messiah.
believing Gentiles. - those who came through believing Israel (Cornelius).

Then, apart and separate from Israel, the new creature.....neither gentile nor Jew.

 

[Hoping]

ABOUT the Jews. Is this really so hard for you to understand?

Nope, not at all hard to understand it was about the Jews.

Unbelieving Jews, - those who rejected Christ as the Messiah. Paul was in that group before he got saved.

Agreed.

Believing Jews, - those who confessed Christ as the Messiah.
believing Gentiles. - those who came through believing Israel (Cornelius).
Then, apart and separate from Israel, the new creature.....neither gentile nor Jew.

Yes indeed.
Though I don't know what you mean by "came through believing Israel".
Is that long-hand for "Peter"?
As for "separate from Israel", don't you mean "separate from unbelieving Israel"?
I, for one, am grateful to be one with believing Israel.

 

[Hoping]

Nope, not at all hard to understand it was about the Jews.
But it went further than that with commandments for both Jew and Gentile believers.
Paul outlined the results of having faith.

Agreed.

Yes indeed.
Though I don't know what you mean by "came through believing Israel".
Is that long-hand for "Peter"?
As for "separate from Israel", don't you mean "separate from unbelieving Israel"?
I, for one, am grateful to be one with believing Israel.

 

[glorydaz]

Nope, not at all hard to understand it was about the Jews.

Agreed.

Yes indee
Though I don't know what you mean by "came through believing Israel".
Is that long-hand for "Peter"?

Yes, Peter and rest of the little flock. The Kingdom believers.

As for "separate from Israel", don't you mean "separate from unbelieving Israel"?
I, for one, am grateful to be one with believing Israel.

No, I mean separate from Israel......without covenants and promises of Israel.
The body of Christ has nothing to do with Israel's standing with God.

You're one with believing Israel as Cornelius was.
As if that was even possible.

 

[Hoping]

Yes, Peter and rest of the little flock. The Kingdom believers.

Well as a believer that the kingdom has come, I am one of the flock that knows my Shepherd's voice.

No, I mean separate from Israel......without covenants and promises of Israel.
The body of Christ has nothing to do with Israel's standing with God.

Certainly not the unbelieving Israelis.
But the believing Jews are the body of Christ.

You're one with believing Israel as Cornelius was.

Agreed, as we have both turned from sin and been "immersed" into Christ and into His death, burial, and been raised with Him to walk in newness of life. (Rom 6:4)

As if that was even possible.

I think I just quoted the Romans 6 scripture that defines how it was possible.
Thanks be to God.

 

[Right Divider]

Well as a believer that the kingdom has come, I am one of the flock that knows my Shepherd's voice.

Have you not noticed that Paul never once calls believers sheep? And that Paul never once refers to Christ as our shepherd?

The title "sheep" is reserved in scripture for members of the nation of Israel.

 

[Hoping]

Have you not noticed that Paul never once calls believers sheep?

He never called them booger-heads either.
Paul wrote Rom 8:36, right?..."As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter."
Jesus used very much figurative speech, especially in His parables.
We aren't actually "sheep", you know?

And that Paul never once refers to Christ as our shepherd?

No, he didn't, but I can't recall Paul ever using parables either.

The title "sheep" is reserved in scripture for members of the nation of Israel.

As only HIS sheep will follow Him, the sheep of Jesus' parables are everyone who follows Him, regardless of national heritage.
Don't you follow Him?