Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[JudgeRightly]

Alright, hold up, you two.

It seems both of you are talking past each other.

Glory, you said:

This is where the error started, and Clete is still refusing to admit those chapters are about Israel.

Which says that Clete denies that Romans 9-11 are ABOUT, not TO, Israel. Yet Clete clearly stated:

I have never denied it! Being talked ABOUT is NOT the same as being spoken TO!

Am I missing something here? Or are you both getting worked up over a simple miscommunication?

 

[Idolater]

In post 416

I wrote this..... "Legalism? Where in the world do you get that idea? Romans 9, 10, and 11 all pertain to Israel. That's my whole point, and I don't know why it's so impossible for you to consider. "

Clete responded with this......
"You've given me no reason to consider it. It's plain lunatic insanity. Those chapters are the crescendo of the single greatest theological treatise in the history of mankind and one that follows one of the most eloquent teachings of the difference between law and grace that it is possible to pen and you somehow - SOMEHOW - imagine that those chapters were written for the Jews and teach law! There's more reason to believe that God predestined Adam's fall than there is for believing that the Apostle Paul taught law to Kingdom Jews ANYWHERE much less in the tenth chapter of the greatest presentation of the grace gospel that anyone will ever read!"

This is where the error started, and Clete is still refusing to admit those chapters are about Israel.
What Israel lacked was NOT obedience to the law, so that law argument goes right down the drain.
What unbelieving Israel lacked was FAITH in their Messiah. Only believing Israel had faith in HIS NAME.
This is elementary ....or should be.


Whatever is added to Paul's gospel is preaching falsehood. Be it water baptism, confessing with the mouth, forgiving others in order to be forgiven, repentance of sins. Anytime anything is added to Christ's work on the cross, you can be assured it's false doctrine.

NEVER in Paul's gospel are members of the body told we must confess Jesus as Lord in order to be saved.
Those who claim to be members of the body of Christ need to clean up their message.

I just want to . . . point out, that when I summarize the Gospel as one simple sentence, I say "Believe in Jesus", as evidenced earlier in this thread. That is to say, I don't use Romans 10:9. And this is in my determination Catholicism's answer to the question as well. Believe in Christ, Believe in Jesus, either one. Galatians 2:16 " ... even we have believed in Jesus Christ ..."

 

[Right Divider]

I just want to . . . point out, that when I summarize the Gospel as one simple sentence, I say "Believe in Jesus", as evidenced earlier in this thread. That is to say, I don't use Romans 10:9. And this is in my determination Catholicism's answer to the question as well. Believe in Christ, Believe in Jesus, either one. Galatians 2:16 " ... even we have believed in Jesus Christ ..."

What does "believe in Jesus" mean?

 

[Idolater]

What does "believe in Jesus" mean?

It's up to you, if you're not Catholic.

Or, if you're asking what it means to Catholicism, see our Catechism. It's pretty deep but it 'boils down to' go to Mass and attempt to achieve and maintain a "state of grace" which has nothing to do with salvation but instead it has to do with being licitly permitted to receive the Eucharist at Holy Communion (celebrated each Mass), which is done by each individual Catholic according to 'the honor system'. Because I know 1st Corinthians 11, I personally "examine" myself, as Paul directly advises (or commands) the Corinthian Christians, and that's how I ascertain whether or not I should "go up" for Communion. If ever I ascertain that I am not "worthily" receiving, that's what Confession's for. See our Catechism.

 

[Right Divider]

It's up to you, if you're not Catholic.

Many "Christian" cults claim to "believe in Jesus"... like Mormons... but their Jesus is a figment of their imagination.

Or, if you're asking what it means to Catholicism, see our Catechism.

Your Catechism is a lot of wind.

It's pretty deep

I'd call that convoluted.

but it 'boils down to' go to Mass and attempt to achieve and maintain a "state of grace" which has nothing to do with salvation but instead it has to do with being licitly permitted to receive the Eucharist at Holy Communion (celebrated each Mass), which is done by each individual Catholic according to 'the honor system'. Because I know 1st Corinthians 11, I personally "examine" myself, as Paul directly advises (or commands) the Corinthian Christians, and that's how I ascertain whether or not I should "go up" for Communion. If ever I ascertain that I am not "worthily" receiving, that's what Confession's for. See our Catechism.

No, I'll not wade into that swamp.

 

[glorydaz]

Alright, hold up, you two.

It seems both of you are talking past each other.

Glory, you said:



Which says that Clete denies that Romans 9-11 are ABOUT, not TO, Israel. Yet Clete clearly stated:



Am I missing something here? Or are you both getting worked up over a simple miscommunication?

I'm not the least bit worked up.

I'm saying quite clearly that chapters 9-11 has nothing to do with the body of Christ.
Chapters 9-11 has nothing to do with the body of Christ.
Very simple.

 

[JudgeRightly]

I'm not the least bit worked up.

I'm saying quite clearly that chapters 9-11 has nothing to do with the body of Christ.
Chapters 9-11 has nothing to do with the body of Christ.
Very simple.

Are chapters 9-11 written to/for the Body of Christ?

 

[glorydaz]

I just want to . . . point out, that when I summarize the Gospel as one simple sentence, I say "Believe in Jesus", as evidenced earlier in this thread. That is to say, I don't use Romans 10:9. And this is in my determination Catholicism's answer to the question as well. Believe in Christ, Believe in Jesus, either one. Galatians 2:16 " ... even we have believed in Jesus Christ ..."

The Jews were required to confess Him with their mouth. It's a Jew thing.

 

[glorydaz]

Are chapters 9-11 written to/for the Body of Christ?

FOR our understanding of God's dealings with the Jews.

 

[JudgeRightly]

FOR our understanding of God's dealings with the Jews.

Then as far as I can tell, Clete agrees with you, at least on this point.

 

[glorydaz]

Then as far as I can tell, Clete agrees with you, at least on this point.

Not when it comes to verses 9 and 10. He claims those are for us, and not about Israel.

 

[Clete]

Alright, hold up, you two.

It seems both of you are talking past each other.

Glory, you said:



Which says that Clete denies that Romans 9-11 are ABOUT, not TO, Israel. Yet Clete clearly stated:



Am I missing something here? Or are you both getting worked up over a simple miscommunication?

I've pointed out that exact thing multiple times. I can't figure out where the disconnect is.

 

[Clete]

Not when it comes to verses 9 and 10. He claims those are for us, and not about Israel.

That's right because it is plainly obvious that the passage in question is being said to Paul's audience, which is the Body of Christ, which you have now conceded, and there isn't any indication that he's trying to tell them that this is how someone from Israel gets saved under the previous dispensation.
I understand that this is what you are claiming, but there isn't anything in the text that indicates that. In fact, it's quite the contrary. Paul tells his audience, in Rome....

"that if YOU confess with YOUR mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in YOUR heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

if he were telling his audience what you're suggesting it should read more like...

" that if THEY confess with THEIR mouths the Lord Jesus and believe in THEIR hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, THEY will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (note the absence of verse 12 (in bold in the previous quote))​

I repeat again, the fact that Paul brought up Israel does not support, by itself, the leap in logic that declares the whole of chapters 9-11 to be doctrinally inapplicable to the Body of Christ. Paul is using Israel's history with God as proof that this is valid doctrine. Among other things, what can be learned from Paul's argument is that while the Body of Christ and Israel aren't the same thing, it doesn't mean that it's an entirely different religion. Christianity is, in fact, a modified form of Judaism.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

That's right because it is plainly obvious that the passage in question is being said to Paul's audience, which is the Body of Christ, which you have now conceded, and there isn't any indication that he's trying to tell them that this is how someone from Israel gets saved under the previous dispensation.
I understand that this is what you are claiming, but there isn't anything in the text that indicates that. In fact, it's quite the contrary. Paul tells his audience, in Rome....

"that if YOU confess with YOUR mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in YOUR heart that God has raised Him from the dead, YOU will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him. For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.”​

if he were telling his audience what you're suggesting it should read more like...

" that if THEY confess with THEIR mouths the Lord Jesus and believe in THEIR hearts that God has raised Him from the dead, THEY will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the Scripture says, “Whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame.” For “whoever calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved.” (note the absence of verse 12 (in bold in the previous quote))​

I repeat again, the fact that Paul brought up Israel does not support, by itself, the leap in logic that declares the whole of chapters 9-11 to be doctrinally inapplicable to the Body of Christ. Paul is using Israel's history with God as proof that this is valid doctrine. Among other things, what can be learned from Paul's argument is that while the Body of Christ and Israel aren't the same thing, it doesn't mean that it's an entirely different religion. Christianity is, in fact, a modified form of Judaism.

Clete

My goodness. You act like Paul hadn't used "thou" in his letter to the Romans before when speaking of the Jews.

Romans 2:17-19
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.

Every single part of Romans 10 is found in the Old Testament. Even the part you are trying to make about the body of Christ.

Yet, NOWHERE will you find Paul giving members of the body any instruction that comes close to what is required of Israel.
You won't find it, because it isn't there. We do not confess with our mouth the way the Jews were required to.

The Jews knew their Messiah was supposed to come.
They didn't know His name, and that's why confession of His name is so important.
It was required of the Jews. It is NEVER required of the body.

Luke 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

 

[Clete]

My goodness. You act like Paul hadn't used "thou" in his letter to the Romans before when speaking of the Jews.

Romans 2:17-19
Behold, thou art called a Jew, and restest in the law, and makest thy boast of God,
And knowest his will, and approvest the things that are more excellent, being instructed out of the law;
And art confident that thou thyself art a guide of the blind, a light of them which are in darkness,

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead,
thou shalt be saved.

Every single part of Romans 10 is found in the Old Testament. Even the part you are trying to make about the body of Christ.

Yet, NOWHERE will you find Paul giving members of the body any instruction that comes close to what is required of Israel.
You won't find it, because it isn't there. We do not confess with our mouth the way the Jews were required to.

The Jews knew their Messiah was supposed to come.
They didn't know His name, and that's why confession of His name is so important.
It was required of the Jews. It is NEVER required of the body.

Luke 12:8
Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

Acts 10:43
To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.
John 1:12
But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
John 20:31
But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.

Okay, so this is clearly all you've got which is entirely unconvincing for reasons already explained and totally unresponsive to the multiple arguments presented against this whole wacky idea.

I'm done with it.

 

[glorydaz]

Okay, so this is clearly all you've got which is entirely unconvincing for reasons already explained and totally unresponsive to the multiple arguments presented against this whole wacky idea.

I'm done with it.

That's good. You're just not ready. Just be careful you don't put it as a requirement for salvation. Your lack of knowledge should not be allowed to be preached as Paul's gospel of grace where NOTHING is to be added to faith.

Oh, and you should be adding that salvation is a GIFT of God that no amount of confessing Christ can acquire.

 

[Clete]

That's good. You're just not ready. Just be careful you don't put it as a requirement for salvation. Your lack of knowledge should not be allowed to be preached as Paul's gospel of grace where NOTHING is to be added to faith.

Oh, and you should be adding that salvation is a GIFT of God that no amount of confessing Christ can acquire.

I stand by my list as it currently exists for the reasons given dozens of times now.

 

[glorydaz]

I stand by my list as it currently exists for the reasons given dozens of times now.

Then I can honestly and confidently say your list is worth nothing.

Are you claiming these verses are for the body of Christ? Perhaps your error goes deeper than I first thought.

• 1 John 4:2
  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
  
  
• 1 John 4:3
  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  
• 1 John 4:15
  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

 

[Clete]

Then I can honestly and confidently say your list is worth nothing.

Well, saying it doesn't make it so, glorydaz.

Are you claiming these verses are for the body of Christ? Perhaps your error goes deeper than I first thought.

• 1 John 4:2
  Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:
  
  
• 1 John 4:3
  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
  
  
• 1 John 4:15
  Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

You know, Kingdom believers not only confessed with their mouths but had to put their faith in a man named Jesus Christ. They also believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that He was the Messiah, that He was the Lamb of God who was slain for their iniquities and that He rose from the dead. They believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in them in six days, they believe that the Law was given through Moses, that Joshua asked God to stop the Sun and that God did it, they believe that it is immoral to murder and to steal and to disrespect your parents but that worshiping God with a pure heart and with songs of praise is wisdom itself and there's a hundred thousand other things that Kingdom believers had and will have in common with the Body of Christ.

What was that, the fifteenth time I've made that same point in one way or the other? Feels like the fiftieth!

Will you continue to ignore it for just long enough that you feel free to repeat this same non-sequitur again as though it's never been responded too?

YEP!

And it will be exactly as persuasive the next time you repeat it as it was all the other times!

How long will it take you to figure out that what is true of Kingdom believers is NOT RELEVANT to whether the same is true or not of the Body of Christ? We are not two groups of people who worship a different God and practice an altogether different religion nor does the Body of Christ formulate its doctrine by negating what Kingdom believers did. That isn't how it works. There's plenty that's different but there's also tons of over lap and so simply pointing out a parallel between the two only goes to prove the relationship between the two, not that I've gotten something wrong.

Clete

 

[glorydaz]

Well, saying it doesn't make it so, glorydaz.


You know, Kingdom believers not only confessed with their mouths but had to put their faith in a man named Jesus Christ. They also believed that Jesus was the Son of God and that He was the Messiah, that He was the Lamb of God who was slain for their iniquities and that He rose from the dead. They believe that God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in them in six days, they believe that the Law was given through Moses, that Joshua asked God to stop the Sun and that God did it, they believe that it is immoral to murder and to steal and to disrespect your parents but that worshiping God with a pure heart and with songs of praise is wisdom itself and there's a hundred thousand other things that Kingdom believers had and will have in common with the Body of Christ.

What was that, the fifteenth time I've made that same point in one way or the other? Feels like the fiftieth!

Will you continue to ignore it for just long enough that you feel free to repeat this same non-sequitur again as though it's never been responded too?

YEP!

And it will be exactly as persuasive the next time you repeat it as it was all the other times!

How long will it take you to figure out that what is true of Kingdom believers is NOT RELEVANT to whether the same is true or not of the Body of Christ? We are not two groups of people who worship a different God and practice an altogether different religion nor does the Body of Christ formulate its doctrine by negating what Kingdom believers did. That isn't how it works. There's plenty that's different but there's also tons of over lap and so simply pointing out a parallel between the two only goes to prove the relationship between the two, not that I've gotten something wrong.

Clete

Ah, so you're admitting that Paul was speaking about Israel in chapters 9-11.

Don't you dare claim you've been saying that all along.
You claimed that the body of Christ had to confess with their mouth in order to be saved, which is not true.

How long will it take you to admit you're adding the works the Kingdom believers were required to perform (confessing their Messiah) onto the backs of the body of Christ. Wiggle and squirm if you need to, but you need to take that confessing off your list for grace believers.

Kingdom believers are the remnant of Israel. They are not the body of Christ.

There is distinction between Israel and the body. If you don't figure that out, then you'll continue to promote this error you've been preaching.