Beloved57 are you sure you’re chosen?

[Poly]

@beloved57, I was just curious, are you 100% positive that you are in the chosen group? What if God predestined you to think you are saved but actually plans on sending you to hell?

 

[Hoping]

Beloved57, I was just curious, are you 100% positive that you are in the chosen group? What if God predestined you to think you are saved but actually plans on sending you to hell?

Good question, especially in light of Jesus' remarks in Matt 7:21-23..."Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."

 

[Idolater]

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
Same goes for the alternative, if you're 'reprobate' and basically predestined to hell----nothing you can do.

This is the true foundation of Calvinist (AKA 'Reformed') morals. You can see it's nothing. This is why Calvinism is inconsistent with Sacred Scripture, because Sacred Scripture values good morals in the Body of Christ, but Calvinism, in the final analysis, doesn't.

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
If you're predestined to hell there's also nothing you can do to change it----nothing.

Ask any Calvinist if the above two sentences are true----they'll tell you.

 

[glorydaz]

Beloved57, I was just curious, are you 100% positive that you are in the chosen group? What if God predestined you to think you are saved but actually plans on sending you to hell?

Or more likely, satan has been caused Beloved57 to believe a lie.

 

[musterion]

No Calvinist can claim, without sin of presumption, that they're 100% sure they're saved because none can know with certainty that they've first been elected to be saved.

The honest ones will admit that. B57 probably won't.

 

[Arial]

It is what a person believes about the person and work of Jesus that determines what their faith is in, and therefore, whether or not someone is in Christ.

What is atrocious @Poly, is for someone to directly and deliberately sow seeds of doubt within the heart of another. Do you not know that we will reap what we sow?

Those who believe that the Bible teaches that it is God, and no part of themselves, who saves, even in His grace of giving them a new birth wherein their natural enmity towards God is dissolved, their stony heart removed and a new soft and pliable in His hands heart given; these are just as saved as those who (one could say arrogantly and with presumption) say they are saved because of what Jesus did but also because of what they did, when they, being much better people by nature than those who who do not chose to believe, chose to believe in Jesus. That sure Jesus did the work, made the sacrifice, but that it has no efficacy without the actions of man also.

All who are saved are saved by the grace of God.

 

[musterion]

It is what a person believes about the person and work of Jesus that determines what their faith is in, and therefore, whether or not someone is in Christ.

What is atrocious @Poly, is for someone to directly and deliberately sow seeds of doubt within the heart of another. Do you not know that we will reap what we sow?

Those who believe that the Bible teaches that it is God, and no part of themselves, who saves, even in His grace of giving them a new birth wherein their natural enmity towards God is dissolved, their stony heart removed and a new soft and pliable in His hands heart given; these are just as saved as those who (one could say arrogantly and with presumption) say they are saved because of what Jesus did but also because of what they did, when they, being much better people by nature than those who who do not chose to believe, chose to believe in Jesus. That sure Jesus did the work, made the sacrifice, but that it has no efficacy without the actions of man also.

All who are saved are saved by the grace of God.

You have no idea of the background context of her question. You need to just be quiet.

 

[Arial]

You have no idea of the background context of her question. You need to just be quiet.

I do know what the question was though. What is wrong with you people that you are so militant in your approach? So destructive within the body of Christ? So hateful and contemptuous?

I understand fully why you think I need to be quiet---or want me to be quiet. But you are not the one I answer to.

 

[Clete]

It is what a person believes about the person and work of Jesus that determines what their faith is in, and therefore, whether or not someone is in Christ.

What is atrocious @Poly, is for someone to directly and deliberately sow seeds of doubt within the heart of another. Do you not know that we will reap what we sow?

Those who believe that the Bible teaches that it is God, and no part of themselves, who saves, even in His grace of giving them a new birth wherein their natural enmity towards God is dissolved, their stony heart removed and a new soft and pliable in His hands heart given; these are just as saved as those who (one could say arrogantly and with presumption) say they are saved because of what Jesus did but also because of what they did, when they, being much better people by nature than those who who do not chose to believe, chose to believe in Jesus. That sure Jesus did the work, made the sacrifice, but that it has no efficacy without the actions of man also.

All who are saved are saved by the grace of God.

Then you answer the question, Arail!

What is so atrocious about Poly doing precisely and only as God predestined her to say and do? If she sows a seed of doubt it is because God predestined her to do so, right? If that seed takes root and it shipwrecks B57's faith, that too was predestined, was it not?

How then do you or B57 know that it wasn't Poly's destiny to show up here on Feb. 13th 2022 to put B57 right back on the path to Hell that he has always been predestined to take?

Tell us, Arial. How could you possibly know?

Clete

P.S. Here's an example of someone who professes a belief in the person and work of Jesus...

Dennis Rader: The serial killer known as BTK (Bind Torture Kill) who not only brutally murdered and tortured people but raped an eleven year old girl in 1974. He was also president of the church council of Christ Lutheran Church in Park City Kansas. A church, by the way, that believes God predestined everything before time began, just the way you and B57 do.

 

[Arial]

Then you answer the question, Arail!

That is not how my name is spelled.

What is so atrocious about Poly doing precisely and only as God predestined her to say and do? If she shows a seed of doubt it is because God predestined her to do so, right? If that seed takes root and it shipwrecks B57's faith, that too was predestined, was it not?

You speak as someone who only knows how to use emotion and a stawman to reply to a post. The Jews and Romans were predetermined by God to crucify Jesus, yet they were also entirely responsible for their own evil behavior. If Poly is a Christian, she should know what her responsibilities are and what they are not, as clearly outlined for her in scripture. That she prefers to obey a whim of her flesh rather than bow before the council of the Lord is on her. People who attack Reformed theology in the way that you do, because they never go below the surface of a thing, and do not care to, and simply have a poorly informed emotional reaction (and still think they know all about it) do not begin to understand the doctrines of God's sovereignty or man's responsibility.

How then do you or B57 know that it wasn't Poly's destiny to show up here on Feb. 13th 2022 to put B57 right back on the path to Hell that he has always been predestined to take?

And there we have it. Instead of listening to and obeying the council of the Lord, found in scripture, you double down on the atrocious sin, by setting yourself up as Judge, rather than Jesus Christ.

P.S. Here's an example of someone who professes a belief in the person and work of Jesus...

Emphasis on the word professed. Many wolves in sheep's clothing hide within Christ's church. Many more, including pastors, don't even know how to recognize them.

 

[JudgeRightly]

No Calvinist can claim, without sin of presumption, that they're 100% sure they're saved because none can know with certainty that they've first been elected to be saved.

The honest ones will admit that. B57 probably won't.

He will probably just ignore the thread.

Prove me wrong, @beloved57 !!!

It is what a person believes about the person and work of Jesus that determines what their faith is in, and therefore, whether or not someone is in Christ.

According to Calvinism, especially hardcore Calvinists such as B57, ANYTHING a person believes is predetermined by God before the foundation of the earth.

And that includes at every point in a person's life.

What is atrocious @Poly, is for someone to directly and deliberately sow seeds of doubt within the heart of another. Do you not know that we will reap what we sow?

Aside from what Clete said above (which is extremely well said, btw... Nice one @Clete!), is not this thread a "reaping of what is sown" by B57?

Those who believe that the Bible teaches that it is God, and no part of themselves, who saves,

Which includes non-Calvinists, by the way, just so you know.

even in His grace of giving them a new birth wherein their natural enmity towards God is dissolved, their stony heart removed and a new soft and pliable in His hands heart given; these are just as saved as those who (one could say arrogantly and with presumption)

Is it not arrogant and presumptuous to assert that you are the determiner of who is saved and who is not, simply because they present a challenge to what you believe?

Is it arrogant and presumptuous to challenge the belief that God predetermined some people to go to hell, and others to go to heaven, simply due to "the pleasure of His goodwill"?

say they are saved because of what Jesus did but also because of what they did,

No one here, as far as I can tell, believes that they are saved because of something they did.

when they, being much better people by nature than those who who do not chose to believe, chose to believe in Jesus. That sure Jesus did the work, made the sacrifice, but that it has no efficacy without the actions of man also.

What does the Bible say?

"I have set before you this day life and death, therefore choose life, that ye may live."

God is the one who determined the conditions that must be met for Him to save someone. Who are you to question them?

All who are saved are saved by the grace of God.

AMEN!

You have no idea of the background context of her question. You need to just be quiet.

Indeed. And indeed, the same question could be asked of Arial, too.

 

[Poly]

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
Same goes for the alternative, if you're 'reprobate' and basically predestined to hell----nothing you can do.

This is the true foundation of Calvinist (AKA 'Reformed') morals. You can see it's nothing. This is why Calvinism is inconsistent with Sacred Scripture, because Sacred Scripture values good morals in the Body of Christ, but Calvinism, in the final analysis, doesn't.

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
If you're predestined to hell there's also nothing you can do to change it----nothing.

Ask any Calvinist if the above two sentences are true----they'll tell you.

That’s not what I’m getting at. It’s not about there being nothing you can do to change God’s plan. I’m simply asking him, does he have full confidence that on the day he dies, he will be one of the chosen. Or is there even the teensiest part of him deep down, that will always wonder if he truly is one of the elect.

 

[JudgeRightly]

That is not how my name is spelled.

You speak as someone who only knows how to use emotion and a stawman to reply to a post.

Fluff.

The Jews and Romans were predetermined by God to crucify Jesus,

One predetermined event does not inherently mean that all things are predetermined by God.

yet they were also entirely responsible for their own evil behavior.

Because God wasn't controlling them like puppets.

Rather, like a Master chess player (or a Meijin (名人), which is probably even more appropriate, to be honest), He is fully capable of manipulating His enemies to accomplish His purposes.

If Poly is a Christian,

Isn't it arrogant and presumptuous to call into question someone's professed faith in God simply because they challenge your theology?

she should know what her responsibilities are and what they are not, as clearly outlined for her in scripture. That she prefers to obey a whim of her flesh rather than bow before the council of the Lord is on her. People who attack Reformed theology in the way that you do, because they never go below the surface of a thing, and do not care to, and simply have a poorly informed emotional reaction (and still think they know all about it) do not begin to understand the doctrines of God's sovereignty or man's responsibility.

Some of us here used to be Calvinists. Some of us have, in fact, learned what it is that Calvinism/Reformed theology teaches. We oppose it on logical and moral grounds, not emotional.

The only one getting emotional about it here, in this conversation, and bringing up emotion at all, is you.

And there we have it. Instead of listening to and obeying the council of the Lord, found in scripture, you double down on the atrocious sin, by setting yourself up as Judge, rather than Jesus Christ.

Christ Himself tells us to judge, and even to judge rightly, and so does Paul.

We are told "he who is spiritual judges all things."

Why are you judging us for judging, Arial?

Emphasis on the word professed.

that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved.
Romans 10:9

Many wolves in sheep's clothing hide within Christ's church.

No one here disagrees with this.

Many more, including pastors, don't even know how to recognize them.

Did you miss this part?

He was also president of the church council of Christ Lutheran Church in Park City Kansas.

I sure didn't.

 

[Poly]

Or more likely, satan has been caused Beloved57 to believe a lie.

No, those believing in an elect group of people also believe God purposely causes one to not believe in Him.

 

[Arial]

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
Same goes for the alternative, if you're 'reprobate' and basically predestined to hell----nothing you can do.

This is the true foundation of Calvinist (AKA 'Reformed') morals. You can see it's nothing. This is why Calvinism is inconsistent with Sacred Scripture, because Sacred Scripture values good morals in the Body of Christ, but Calvinism, in the final analysis, doesn't.

If you're predestined to heaven there's nothing you can do to change it----nothing.
If you're predestined to hell there's also nothing you can do to change it----nothing.

Ask any Calvinist if the above two sentences are true----they'll tell you.

Like any true Catholic, you are totally focused on morals, thinking I guess, that morals trumps the person and work of Christ. That our good morals is what ultimately saves one.

As to your presumption about what "Calvinists" believe, you are not qualified to speak of any of them, let alone all of them. You say you spent a great deal of time among the teachings of Reformed theology and found it to be false. You claim you understand the doctrines fully. And then you say things that show you do not---you have merely formed an opinion and repeat that opinion as fact. And I realize that you may have been given improperly stated doctrine, or a focus that was completely off base, human beings being what they are, but Christians are supposed to do their own homework and study. Rather than base our beliefs on how we desire God to be, who we want Him to be.

Everyone is destined for hell. God did not predestine that, though He knew it would happen and purposed it to work within His greater purpose. Which was for His glory and our recognition of that, our need of Him, and our recognition of that, and His saving and loving power towards His creation.

It is in His great mercy and love that He elects any to salvation. None of them can save themselves---not even with good morals. And if one believes and trusts only in the person and work of Jesus unto salvation, and if that is because of God's grace and mercy, in giving them to Christ through the necessary faith, that is a reason to rejoice in all humility and gratitude. Not a reason to groan that you can't escape this salvation.

But here we are, still giving into the same temptation that Adam and Eve were tempted by. "Yeah sure this being saved thing is wonderful. And sure, I needed God's help, but I did it myself for myself by being wise enough to choose Him. If I hadn't made that choice, Christ's death would have been in vain as far as I am concerned." No matter that God being God and the work of Jesus being the work of Jesus, and God saying that all His purposes will come to pass, and Jesus saying that He would lose none of those that God gave Him. Many still cry out with bitter insistence, "Christ's work amounted to nothing without my contribution!"

 

[JudgeRightly]

No, those believing in an elect group of people also believe God purposely causes one to not believe in Him.

Exactly, or at the very least, God caused Satan to cause B57 to believe a lie.

Under Calvinism (and Reformed theology in general), everything is, ultimately, caused by God.

 

[Poly]

That is not how my name is spelled.

You speak as someone who only knows how to use emotion and a stawman.

That’s not how strawman is spelled.

If Poly is a Christian…

Why do you get to question whether or not I’m a Christian but I don’t get to Question Beloved57?

 

[Right Divider]

Why do you get to question whether or not I’m a Christian but I don’t get to Question Beloved57?

That does seem a bit hypocritical.

 

[musterion]

Calvin admitted to the possibility of spurious faith, where God allows a reprobate to appear and even believe that they've believed the Gospel.

But they go to Hell anyway because they remain unregenerate because they're not elect...the Blood wasn't shed for reprobates...so they have 0% chance of being saved no matter what they believe.

Calvinists don't like to talk about this, I've found.

 

[Arial]

Why do you get to question whether or not I’m a Christian but I don’t get to Question Beloved57?

I wasn't questioning whether or not you are a Christian! I have no way of knowing that. It was rather an assumption that you were and therefore you should know better than to do what you did.

But way to go---not addressing the content of a post.