Battle Talk ~ Battle Royale VIII

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Nimrod,

If all believe this why do some continue to insist that we should follow "the Law" (the OT)?

The LAW was never done away with. In this dispensation God no longer wants animal sacrifice and anything related to it. (see hebrews).

Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW. Here is one of them. Proverbs 3:1-2 "1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. ". To summarize, God will bless us.

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
If there is a good reason for not taking things of the Bible in a "literal" sense then they must be taken figuratively.However,when there is no reason to take things in a figurative sense then we must attempt to put a "literal" meaning upon them.

Now don't get me wrong, I do believe that some of the OT prophecies were fulfilled literally to the very fine point of detail. But some others were fulfilled spirtually. See Acts 15:12-19, OT prophecy fulfilled through the believing gentiles(spirtual Israel).

A combination of a literal and spiritual approach in interpreting prophecy is warranted by the NT itself. This fact militates against the dispensationalist insistence upon a strict literalism in its hermeneutics. As Charles Hodge says in his Systematic Theology,
Two things are remarkable about the prophecies of Scripture, which have already been accomplished. The one is that the fulfillment has, in many cases, been very different from that which a literal interpretation led men to anticipate. The other is, that in some cases they have been fulfilled even to the most minute details. These facts should render us modest in our interpretation of those predictions which remain to be accomplished; satisfied that what we know not now what we shall know hereafter. (pp. 845-850)

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart
Do you not believe that "all" things concerning Him that are written in the OT will indeed come to pass?

In His grace,--Jerry

Right now, I do believe that all prophecies in the OT about Christ has already come to pass, in fact I have a discussion going on in the eschatology forum. take a look. LINK

God Bless

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Nimrod

The LAW was never done away with.

To the believer in Christ the law is dead according to the Scriptural record...

So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...

When you're dead to the law you are dead to it. Case close.

Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW.

doesn't sound like you're a believer...

The Scripures teach...

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Freak

To the believer in Christ the law is dead according to the Scriptural record...
So, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ...
When you're dead to the law you are dead to it. Case close.

2 Timothy 3:16 "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"


Mt 5:17 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil." Jesus did not come to destroy the law.

Mt 22:37-46 " Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." Jesus gave us two great commandments which sum up the Law. He never done away with it.

Paul said in Romans 3:31 "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Paul never made void the law.

I guess the verse u are referring to must be in second opinions or first Ahab. :chuckle:

Originally posted by Freak
The Scripures teach..

Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.

Amen. No one can ever be declared righteous by observing the law. So in that sense we are dead to the law. We are new creatures in Christ, but we still observe the law because we love Christ, and we do what He tells us to do. And one of the things He asks us to do is the two greatest commandments which summarizes the Law.

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." What commandments is Jesus talking about Freak?

John 14:21 "He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him"

God bless.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Nimrod
The LAW was never done away with.

Nimrod,

First of all,Paul tells those in the Body of Christ that they are "not under the law"(Ro.6:14).

In fact,the Gentiles were never under "the law":

"For when the Gentiles, who have not the law..."(Ro.2:14).

And when some in the Jerusalem church attempted to place the Gentiles under the law,it was decided that they were not obligated to keep the law.

So even though those in the Body who walk in the Spirit establish the law,the Gentiles were never obligated to keep the law.

Right now, I do believe that all prophecies in the OT about Christ has already come to pass...

Perhaps you can tell me when the folllowing prophecy was fulfilled:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

Now we can see if you have a "reasonable" answer as to when this happened.

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Originally posted by Nimrod
Why should we follow the LAW? There are many Scriptural passages of why we should keep the LAW. Here is one of them. Proverbs 3:1-2 "1 My son, forget not my law; but let thine heart keep my commandments: 2 For length of days, and long life, and peace, shall they add to thee. ". To summarize, God will bless us.

Nimrod,

You left out the part that speaks of doing "all things that are written in the book of the law":

"Cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them"(Deut.27:26).

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them"(Gal.3:10).

Even though Paul tells us that "Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us"(Gal.3:13),you seem to want to go back to the very thing that Paul calls "weak and beggarly elements"--the law!

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Jerry Shugart]

+

 

[Nimrod]

In Romans 6:14 "Sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace". Paul must be talking about salvation. Why else would he say grace? For those who want to get saved by keeping the law they must keep all aspects of it and never fail at one point. Which is impossible, but those who are without Christ are in this position. Those in Christ are no longer under the condemnation of the law but under grace. Since the righteousness secured by Christ comes upon the sinner through faith, manifestly the works of the Law can have nothing to do with our obtainning of it. But so far is faith-rightousness from undermining the Law, that Paul claims that through faith the Law is established (3:31). Jerry you never answered Jesus statements about the Law and His commandments. Both Christ and Paul asked believers to observe the Law(not the sacrifical). It was never done away with.

Jerry now states that the Gentiles were never under "the law". These same gentiles will "perish without the law". So this can't be referring to us believers. Now to the believing gentiles(spirtual Israel), they are to keep the moral law but not the sacrifical law, circumcison, ceremonial law (not including the sabbath), but they are to refrain from drinking blood. Remember no one is saved by observing the law, we are blessed by God when we do so.


When was Zech 12:8-9 fulfilled. Since Zechariah 12:10 was fulfilled at the time of Jesus’ crucifixion, then the events outlined in verses 1–9 had to have been fulfilled some time prior to Jesus’ crucifixion. In order for dispensationalists to make their position work, they must reverse the chronology of the chapter by placing the events of verses 1–9 after verse ten. I maintain that it was fulfilled during Ester's time. See
LINK

 

[Nimrod]

Jerry you are mixed up, thinking like a true dispensationalist. Righteousness never came by observing the LAW. To think that one is righteous by keeping the law is cursed because you can't do it.

The Law was essentially a works system that resulted in either blessings or cursings (Deuteronomy 28-30). It was based on what one did, not on what one believed. The function of the LAW was not to give life but to guide life.

Gal 3:11 a verse you conviently missed says " But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God,". This part of Gal. is talking about being justified or salvation. Christ took care of the requirements for salvation for us. Nevertheless, now that we are believers and can never lose our salvation we should observe the Law because that is what Christ and Paul said about the law.

When the verse has the work "law" in it, you have to take one step furthur to see if it is referring to salvation or not. Paul clearly stated that we should not make the law void.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Nimrod

No one can ever be declared righteous by observing the law. So in that sense we are dead to the law.

Okay...then you say this:

We are new creatures in Christ, but we still observe the law because we love Christ, and we do what He tells us to do.

All who rely on observing the law are under a curse, for it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law." Clearly no one is justified before God by the law, because, "The righteous will live by faith." The law is not based on faith; on the contrary, "The man who does these things will live by them."

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Note the bold, Nimrod.

John 14:15 "If ye love me, keep my commandments." What commandments is Jesus talking about Freak?

That's easy the Bible says,

And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ...

Homework for Nimrod:

What does this verse mean to you?

Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nimrod,

I asked you when the following prophecy was fulfilled:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

You said,"I maintain that it was fulfilled during Ester's time".

The writer of the link which you provided is so confused that he thinks that the events described in the book of Esther is in regard to "Jerusalem".But the events described in that book happened in Persia,and not in Jerusalem!

This is your "reasonable" answer!

In HIs grace,--Jerry

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Nimrod,

I asked you when the following prophecy was fulfilled:

"In that day shall the LORD defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; and he that is feeble among them at that day shall be as David; and the house of David shall be as God, as the angel of the LORD before them.And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem"(Zech.12:8,9).

You said,"I maintain that it was fulfilled during Ester's time".

The writer of the link which you provided is so confused that he thinks that the events described in the book of Esther is in regard to "Jerusalem".But the events described in that book happened in Persia,and not in Jerusalem!

This is your "reasonable" answer!

In HIs grace,--Jerry

:crackup: :crackup: :crackup:

 

[Nimrod]

IN the Scriptures, Matthew 5:17-20 17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever(That would be Freak) therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so,(That would you, Freak) he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20


I don't know how many times I have to go over this with dispensationalist. It gets frustrating , but they need to know the proper way to think about the Law.

Things to know about the Law
1.) It NEVER brought righteousness. Just because you see a verse that speaks about the law, you have to ask yourself, if he is referring to salvation or something else. If he is speak of salvation, then yes we are no longer under the law. That is a good thing because no one is saved through observing the law. If we die without Christ we will be judged by the Law, and will fall short and will be condemned.
If he is speaking about the law being good and not to make void, he is not speaking about salvation but of a guide on how to live life he on earth.

Freak, since u say u are no longer under the law. What guides to to know what is right or wrong?


In your last post you quote the law, when it is referring to salvation. So I need no to comment about that.

Originally posted by Freak
All who rely on observing the law are under a curse,

What am I relying on? I don't rely on the Observance of the Law for salvation. SO what do you mean about rely?

Originally posted by Freak
What does this verse mean to you?

I certainly won't disagee, but Jesus also said in Matthew 22:40 "On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Are u saying Freak that we no longer need to observe the two greatest commandments?

 

[Jerry Shugart]

Nimrod,

Do you keep the precepts of the Sabbath commandments which are under the Law?

Are you not aware that there have been new commandments given to the Body of Christ?

In His grace,--Jerry

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Jerry Shugart

Nimrod,

Do you keep the precepts of the Sabbath commandments which are under the Law?

Are you not aware that there have been new commandments given to the Body of Christ?

In His grace,--Jerry

Yes to the sabbath, it was never done away with.
Matthew 24:20 "But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:"
What precepts are you talking about?

Jesus never done away with the commandments, in fact he summarized them in the two greatest commandments. I am aware that some of the law, ie sacrifices, dietary, circumcision is done away with in the NT. But I am not aware of commandments that is for the Church and seperate commandments for the Jews. I hold that God has one olive tree, and one sheep fold.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Nimrod

Freak, since u say u are no longer under the law. What guides to to know what is right or wrong?

I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Would you rather be under the Law or be guided by the Holy Spirit? :think:

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Freak

I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

Couple of problems here.
1.) How do you know you are in the Spirit and when you are not?
2.) Can the devil disguise himself as an angel of light, and u might think it is the Spirit speaking?

Of course you are to live by the Spirit, but we leak. We need to refuel the Spirit within us, thererfore there are times when we are not filled in Spirit.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Nimrod

Couple of problems here.
1.) How do you know you are in the Spirit and when you are not?

...because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. Now if we are children, then we are heirs--heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.

2.) Can the devil disguise himself as an angel of light, and u might think it is the Spirit speaking?

See above.

Of course you are to live by the Spirit, but we leak. We need to refuel the Spirit within us, thererfore there are times when we are not filled in Spirit.

This is unbiblical. We don't "leak" the Holy Spirit. We are sealed so no leaking will occur.

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God's possession--to the praise of his glory.

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Freak
We don't "leak" the Holy Spirit. We are sealed so no leaking will occur.

Acts 2:4 "And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."

Acts 4:31 "And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness."

Two different instances where the disciples were filled with the Holy Spirit. It goes to show that one is not always "filled".

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not a one time transaction. It starts at re-birth and we need to continue to be filled, by following Jesus commands which summarizes the law and prophets, also by fasting and praying.

 

[Freak]

Originally posted by Nimrod

Being filled with the Holy Spirit is not a one time transaction. It starts at re-birth and we need to continue to be filled, by following Jesus commands which summarizes the law and prophets, also by fasting and praying.

:nono: Can you lose the infilling of the Holy Spirit? Where does it state in Scripture that we are filled with the Holy Spirit via obedience to the law?

 

[Nimrod]

Originally posted by Freak

:nono: Can you lose the infilling of the Holy Spirit? Where does it state in Scripture that we are filled with the Holy Spirit via obedience to the law?

Eph 5:18 "but be filled with the Holy Spirit". This statement is in present tense, or another way of wording it 'Be continually being filled with the Holy Spirit', thus implying that this is something that should repeatedly be happening to Christians.

Think of a balloon, once it is filled with air even though it can hold more, you can say it is filled. But when you put more air into it, the ballon stretches. The same way the Holy Spirit works in us, we are filled(air) but as our christian sanctification grows we are able to hold more air and need to be filled again.

This is a poor analogy, hard to explain God. No, you can not lose the infilling of the Holy Spirit.

How to stay filled in Spirit
------------------------------------------
We must: (1) be Christ-centered, (2) be in the Word, (3) be submissive, and (4) be confident.

1.)The first essential for being Spirit-filled is to center our lives on Jesus Christ. He must be the focal point of our thoughts and aspirations. In all we do, we must be conscious of following His example and doing His will. When we are Christ-centered, we are pleasing the Holy Spirit because that's what He wants us to do. In fact, Jesus said, "He [the Holy Spirit] will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you" (John 16:14).
We nned to Purify ourselves from sin (1 John 3:2,3) "Whosoever committeth sin trangresseth also the law....and in him there is no sin...whosoever is born of God doth no commit sin"

If you love Christ you will do what He says, i.e. follow His commandments, which sum up the law and prophets. This is just one of the step of being filled with the Holy Spirit

Freak how do you interpret Romans 8:4?