Atheist Morality

[Skeeter]

If it's not randomness, who is controlling it?

Not who, how!

 

[Right Divider]

Not who, how!

Control is NOT a feature of "nature". You live in a fantasy world were fiction is "fact".

Information comes from INTELLIGENCE. That is a fact.

 

[JudgeRightly]

When the magnitude of the good is so great then your attempt at math proves you a simpleton.

Doing evil is inherently wrong, no matter what good comes of it.

Do right, and risk the consequences.

YOU set up the nonsensical hypothetical where by there is a guarantee of pervasive good across many lives across time for sacrifice of one.

Based on YOUR assertion that "It is moral to strive for conditions where each human being has an ample chance to live a full lifespan without undue misery and hardship."

If you disagree with my hypothetical, then clearly your assertion is flawed, to the extent that you think that my hypothetical based on it is flawed.

It is not a helpful hypothetical because no real death has any guarantees of a pervasive contingent good in the real world.

Denying the hypothetical means you don't really hold to your statement, Skeeter.

You should reconsider your position.

For example, there is little evidence that state killing a guy who killed his neighbor has any deterrent value.

False. There is plenty of evidence.

The reason the death penalty isn't a deterrent in our current society is due to it not being a swift punishment.

Some guy murders someone else, several months later, he's still going through the legal system, and hasn't even been sentenced yet.

Our just-a-system (it's no longer a justice system, now it's just a system) is so slow, and the punishment so drawn out, that any deterrent effect a death penalty (and that's AFTER spending years in jail) might have, is negated by it.

This is why God said punish criminals swiftly and painfully, so that the justice system doesn't get bogged down by process.

If we had a good justice system, criminals would be punished within 48 hours of being caught, and the government would be able to catch criminals extremely quickly.

A countervailing trend wipes out the value of the threat.

The "countervailing trend" is the long (inhumane) sentences of locking people up for an arbitrary number of years, and also the fact that it takes EXTREME periods of time for anything to happen related to any given case.

I can personally attest to this, as I had to have my marriage annulled, which took over a year due to A) the incompetence of the lawyer I hired, and B) the fact that there were so many legal hurdles to jump through, and C) that there was a waiting period for me to even have a judge available to hear my court case.

This occurs in part because the notion that killing a wrong doer is modeled as just.

The death penalty isn't the only just option. Putting a thief to death for stealing a few dollars from the cash register at his work is unjust, the same way that forcing a murderer to pay restitution to his victim's family is unjust.

Whether you like it or not people in a world where killing is seen as just

It's not just any killing.

It's the execution of those who have committed capital crimes.

And it's not JUST execution of capital criminals. It's the corporal punishment of those guilty of only harming others (eg, flogging). It's restitution paid to the victim.

means that some people will feel justified in vigilant justice.

Vigilantes are only a problem in systems where criminals aren't punished appropriately.

They are extremely rare in a good justice system.

The old testament God was not able to model empathy well. Jesus does in the New testament.

God didn't go to therapy between the Old and New Testaments, Skeeter. In fact, Jesus talked more about hell and eternal damnation more in the New Testament than is mentioned in the Old Testament.

An all powerful entity sets up purportedly moral laws that are proven too rigid for His creatures

Straw man.

God didn't "set up" any laws. His laws are simply an expression of His righteousness, and just as He has existed forever, so too has His standard of righteousness.

It's not God's fault man broke His law.

In fact, the only command God gave man (aside from "be fruitful and multiply") was "don't partake of the law!"

The law is good when it is used lawfully!

and then He makes up some loop hole to get around what HE previously said.

No.

He provided a way to reconcile with you who has violated His law, by fulfilling the demands of justice Himself, and He did so by providing a substitute, Jesus Christ, as payment for your sins.

He loves you so much that He paid the price Himself, Skeeter!

It happens to involve some temporary suffering that he knows full well is temporary?

The wages of sin is death.

Much love is worth some pain.
Some love is worth much pain.

The debt brought about by sin is too much for any man to pay, so He sent His Son, the Man Christ Jesus, who is INIFINITELY more valuable, because He is the Creator God, than man, who is infinitely valuable himself, except that his value is only enough to pay for his own sin, and not any other man's, for the rest of eternity, whereas Christ's value, as the Creator God, is far more valuable than all men who have ever lived and will ever live, thus, His life was sufficient as payment for your sin.

He dies with full knowledge that he will live?

He died so that YOU can live! All you have to do is accept the free gift of eternal life He is offering you!

Does not sound heroic to me.

God once and for all paid for every man's sin, so that no one HAS to go to hell for eternity. He saved me, he can save you, all you have to do is put your trust in Him.

 

[ok doser]

Doing evil is inherently wrong, no matter what good comes of it.

Do right, and risk the consequences.



Based on YOUR assertion that "It is moral to strive for conditions where each human being has an ample chance to live a full lifespan without undue misery and hardship."

If you disagree with my hypothetical, then clearly your assertion is flawed, to the extent that you think that my hypothetical based on it is flawed.



Denying the hypothetical means you don't really hold to your statement, Skeeter.

You should reconsider your position.



False. There is plenty of evidence.

The reason the death penalty isn't a deterrent in our current society is due to it not being a swift punishment.

Some guy murders someone else, several months later, he's still going through the legal system, and hasn't even been sentenced yet.

Our just-a-system (it's no longer a justice system, now it's just a system) is so slow, and the punishment so drawn out, that any deterrent effect a death penalty (and that's AFTER spending years in jail) might have, is negated by it.

This is why God said punish criminals swiftly and painfully, so that the justice system doesn't get bogged down by process.

If we had a good justice system, criminals would be punished within 48 hours of being caught, and the government would be able to catch criminals extremely quickly.



The "countervailing trend" is the long (inhumane) sentences of locking people up for an arbitrary number of years, and also the fact that it takes EXTREME periods of time for anything to happen related to any given case.

I can personally attest to this, as I had to have my marriage annulled, which took over a year due to A) the incompetence of the lawyer I hired, and B) the fact that there were so many legal hurdles to jump through, and C) that there was a waiting period for me to even have a judge available to hear my court case.



The death penalty isn't the only just option. Putting a thief to death for stealing a few dollars from the cash register at his work is unjust, the same way that forcing a murderer to pay restitution to his victim's family is unjust.



It's not just any killing.

It's the execution of those who have committed capital crimes.

And it's not JUST execution of capital criminals. It's the corporal punishment of those guilty of only harming others (eg, flogging). It's restitution paid to the victim.



Vigilantes are only a problem in systems where criminals aren't punished appropriately.

They are extremely rare in a good justice system.



God didn't go to therapy between the Old and New Testaments, Skeeter. In fact, Jesus talked more about hell and eternal damnation more in the New Testament than is mentioned in the Old Testament.



Straw man.

God didn't "set up" any laws. His laws are simply an expression of His righteousness, and just as He has existed forever, so too has His standard of righteousness.

It's not God's fault man broke His law.

In fact, the only command God gave man (aside from "be fruitful and multiply") was "don't partake of the law!"

The law is good when it is used lawfully!



No.

He provided a way to reconcile with you who has violated His law, by fulfilling the demands of justice Himself, and He did so by providing a substitute, Jesus Christ, as payment for your sins.

He loves you so much that He paid the price Himself, Skeeter!



The wages of sin is death.

Much love is worth some pain.
Some love is worth much pain.

The debt brought about by sin is too much for any man to pay, so He sent His Son, the Man Christ Jesus, who is INIFINITELY more valuable, because He is the Creator God, than man, who is infinitely valuable himself, except that his value is only enough to pay for his own sin, and not any other man's, for the rest of eternity, whereas Christ's value, as the Creator God, is far more valuable than all men who have ever lived and will ever live, thus, His life was sufficient as payment for your sin.



He died so that YOU can live! All you have to do is accept the free gift of eternal life He is offering you!



God once and for all paid for every man's sin, so that no one HAS to go to hell for eternity. He saved me, he can save you, all you have to do is put your trust in Him.

Singapore is a great example of harsh punishment meted out swiftly, acting as an effective deterrent