Arminians & Calvinists Limit God's Power To Save

[Samie]

What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?

In the Bible, salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God 2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 [God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Present:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Future:

NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJ Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

All of Adam's race are benefaciaries of the past and present tenses of salvation, but only those whose names remain written in the book of life will benefit from the future tense of salvation. Those whose names were blotted out will not inherit life eternal although they benefited from the past and present tenses of salvation.

 

[Samie]

I chose the number. I have nothing more to add. I don't feel I owe you an explanation. Obviously, you have an agenda.

Well, well. Thanks again, GM. I thought I was simply giving you an opportunity to explain. But I honor your refusal.

Agenda? Of course, I have an agenda. And that is to preach the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again. Is my agenda erroneous?

 

[Samie]

Well, you have already odd views, so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins. Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMR

Thanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4, I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.

 

[Samie]

This thread is supremely erroneous, as it is essentially a complaint that Christianity is not 'one size fits all' under a guise that other theologies 'limit God's power to save'.

Also,
Unconditional Election.

Nice straw man- focusing solely on Limited Atonement.

Thanks for the name, my brother.

This whole thread could not be totally erroneous or your post, being in this thread, is likewise erroneous. Would you mind directly addressing what you call the "supremely erroneous" portions of this thread? Show how or why, using Scriptures, that indeed they are erroneous.

 

[exminister]

I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.

I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.

I don't think you are understanding me correctly. Please read my post #3 & post #4 again.

Re-read.
Guy #1 can do NOTHING without Christ, so "free-will" is a non-starter.
Guy #2 non-elect (not chosen by God) can choose to become elect. He can choose.
(Many are called but few are chosen)

They still conflict.

 

[exminister]

What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?

In the Bible, salvation comes in 3 tenses: Past, Present, Future.

Past:

NKJ Ephesians 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God 2 Timothy 1:9-10 9 [God] has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was given to us in Christ Jesus before time began, 10 but has now been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Jesus Christ, who has abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel

Present:

NKJ 1 Corinthians 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. NKJ 2 Corinthians 2:15 For we are to God the fragrance of Christ among those who are being saved and among those who are perishing.

Future:

NKJ Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved. NKJ Romans 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.

All of Adam's race are benefaciaries of the past and present tenses of salvation, but only those whose names remain written in the book of life will benefit from the future tense of salvation. Those whose names were blotted out will not inherit life eternal although they benefited from the past and present tenses of salvation.

Your PAST quote does NOT include ALL. It only includes those who were saved through faith, which is a remnant. You need a better text for ALL humans.

 

[Samie]

Re-read.
Guy #1 can do NOTHING without Christ, so "free-will" is a non-starter.
Guy #2 non-elect (not chosen by God) can choose to become elect. He can choose.
(Many are called but few are chosen)

They still conflict.

There is free-will when one is in Christ, so your first statement is not accurate.

All in Adam's race were chosen before the foundation of the world, so your second statement is also not accurate.

So, it's your own statements that conflict. Use my own statements in posts #3 & #4 and show me how or why they conflict.

 

[exminister]

Gee, Samie. I showed how they conflicted more than once.
Sorry you cannot get it. Oh well.

 

[Samie]

Your PAST quote does NOT include ALL. It only includes those who were saved through faith, which is a remnant. You need a better text for ALL humans.

2 Tim 1:8-9 includes all humans, since the time frame is before the beginning of time when God Who is not a respecter of persons gave us His grace through which He saved us all. That saving in the past empowered us all to overcome evil, and made us all accountable. BUT only overcomers will finally make it to eternity.

NKJ 1 Timothy 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

 

[Samie]

Gee, Samie. I showed how they conflicted more than once.
Sorry you cannot get it. Oh well.

Please use my statements. Putting words into my mouth won't do it pretty well.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Pure 100% Calvinism. Calvinism (Reformed theology) is a false doctrine that changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. It's mentor "John Calvin" known as, "The Pope of Geneva," was complicit in the execution murders of over fifty some people who disagreed with Calvin. He also was involved with burning, so-called witches at the stake. Someone once said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic church but you can't take the Catholic church out of Calvin." Calvin was an evil man.

Thank you for stopping by with the usual opinion, GM. Noted.

We have discussed this at length and you show no willingness to consider the fallacies you are adopting. Here is an all in one place summary once more for your careful consideration:

http://theologyonline.com/entry.php?3060-The-quot-Calvin-is-a-Murderer-quot-Meme

I regret having assumed you were a reasonable person and were willing to be more circumspect. It seems you have been disingenuous with me all along or are incapable of restraining your choleric nature.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Agenda? Of course, I have an agenda. And that is to preach the gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again. Is my agenda erroneous?

As noted here:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

Question 158 of the Westminster Larger Catechism:
Q. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html

AMR

 

[Samie]

As noted here:
http://opc.org/os.html?article_id=158&issue_id=46

Question 158 of the Westminster Larger Catechism:
Q. By whom is the Word of God to be preached?

A. The Word of God is to be preached only by such as are sufficiently gifted, and also duly approved and called to that office.

AMR

KJV Luke 10:21 In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:19-20 19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent. 20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of this world?

KJV 1 Corinthians 1:27-29 27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty; 28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are: 29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

 

[Samie]

Thanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4, I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html

AMR

Thanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Thank for stopping by with the usual opinion, GM. Noted.

AMR

No problem, any time AMR. The simple "True Gospel" is what I preach. You know, the kind that gets humanity saved in the sight of God. I don't give perspective True Believers tons of Presybeterian materials to peruse.

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

Thanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.

If honesty is at play here, then I honestly assume you are willing to dig a wee bit deeper to consider your position by reviewing the thoughts of those that have come before you.

Tolle lege.

You can do as you wish, as you are an oddity.

AMR

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

No problem, any time AMR. The simple "True Gospel" is what I preach.

I get it, GM. Do you?

AMR

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I get it, GM. Do you?

AMR

No problem AMR. I'm cool with it.

 

[Samie]

Thanks AMR, for your response. I thought you would never discuss with me again.

In post #4, I stated my simple reason why I do not teach nor believe in a limited atonement. Could you please directly address that post? Thank you in advance for directly addressing it, my brother.

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html

AMR

Thanks again, AMR. But honestly, I prefer you directly addressing post#4 rather than go into a wild-goose-chase in the link you gave. But I honor your refusal to directly address it, if you so refuse.

I looked up the link provided by AMR and I found out that it did not discuss in it the verses I used in post #4: Mark 1:14, 15 and Luke 13:3, 5.

Thanks anyway to AMR; his directing me to that link helped me find out that the reason I have for not teaching nor believing in a limited atonement, as I discussed in post #4, is not yet discussed in that document AMR recommended as having explained what I requested him to explain.

I fear explanations explanatory of things explained:

https://www.monergism.com/thethresho...atonement.html

AMR

Looks like you have nothing to fear after all, AMR.

The document you recommended as having explained what I requested you to explain have no explanations whatsoever explanatory of what I wanted explained. All throughout the total 14,886 words in that document, there is no mention whatsoever nor had it referred to Mark 1:14, 15 and Luke 13:3, 5.