Arminians & Calvinists Limit God's Power To Save

[Samie]

1. Arminians teach a general, but conditional, atonement.

Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved.

2. Calvinists teach a limited atonement.

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save certain, specific individuals called the ELECT and secured for them everything necessary for their eternal salvation.

3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.

All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.

Which among the 3 above do you believe in?

 

[exminister]

I can't figure out the one you are leaning towards.

 

[Samie]

I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.

 

[Samie]

I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

 

[Samie]

I can't figure out the one you are leaning towards.

I believe and teach #3.

For me, it's the brand of gospel Jesus wanted preached to the world before He comes again (Matt 24:14). The world had for centuries been bombarded both by #1 & #2. It's time, I guess, to preach to the world #3. And perhaps, our Lord can then come.

 

[Samie]

3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.

All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.

God foreknew that Man will fall into sin, and so He set in place the plan of redemption even before He created this world. Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, God saved us by His grace given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. After He created Adam, God told him he will surely die the day he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam sinned, God set into motion the plan of redemption. Instead of man dying, an animal died in his place that same day he sinned, pointing forward to the death of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[exminister]

I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

Many are called, few are chosen? :idunno:

 

[exminister]

I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.

I don't teach #2, either. Why?

Because #2 does not teach the gospel that Jesus preached. The gospel that Jesus preached calls people to repentance (Mark 1:14, 15) because according to Him, unless people repent they shall perish (Luke 13:3, 5).

Who are being called to repent? If the elect, then, unless they repent the elect shall likewise perish, disproving #2. If the non-elect, then the non-elect could also be saved if they repent, likewise disproving #2.

So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

I'll choose door number 1. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity, however, only those who hear the Gospel of their salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand before Him and be judged according to their works. They will then, be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

 

[exminister]

God foreknew that Man will fall into sin, and so He set in place the plan of redemption even before He created this world. Contingent upon the life, death and resurrection of Christ, God saved us by His grace given us in Christ Jesus before the beginning of time. After He created Adam, God told him he will surely die the day he eats the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

When Adam sinned, God set into motion the plan of redemption. Instead of man dying, an animal died in his place that same day he sinned, pointing forward to the death of the Lamb of God that takes away the sin of the world. No wonder Christ is called the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Those who believe in #1 and #2 would agree with #3.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Christ was preaching to the lost sheep of the House of Israel in Matthew through John. He wasn't preaching to the Gentiles.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Matthew 15:24 "But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Galations 2:7 "But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;" It was Paul that was sent to the Gentiles (uncircumcised) with the Grace Gospel. Peter and the rest were sent to the Circumcised to preach the Kingdom Gospel.

 

[exminister]

3.Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.

All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.

Which among the 3 above do you believe in?

What do you mean by ALL are saved? How are those not finally saved, saved?

 

[Ask Mr. Religion]

1. Arminians teach a general, but conditional, atonement.

Although Christ died for all men and for every man, only those who believe on Him are saved.

2. Calvinists teach a limited atonement.

Christ’s redeeming work was intended to save certain, specific individuals called the ELECT and secured for them everything necessary for their eternal salvation.

3. Scriptures teach a general, unconditional and unlimited atonement.

All of Adam's race were saved, are being saved, BUT only those whose names remain written in the book of life will finally be saved and inherit life eternal.

Which among the 3 above do you believe in?

Well, you have already odd views, so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins (John 6:37; John 6:39; John 10:29; John 17:11-12; John 17:9;John 17:22; John 18:9). Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMR

 

[Crucible]

This thread is supremely erroneous, as it is essentially a complaint that Christianity is not 'one size fits all' under a guise that other theologies 'limit God's power to save'.

Also,
Unconditional Election.

Nice straw man- focusing solely on Limited Atonement.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Well, you have already odd views, so the above, especially that "Adam's race" bit, is not unexpected. :AMR:

Calvinists affirm what we believe Scripture plainly teaches. If you sincerely want to know more about this topic, the following is a reasonable explanation of the teachings from Scripture:
https://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/limitedatonement.html

The reasons for a restricted atonement are simple. The unbeliever will never seek God's righteousness, for the unbeliever

- is deceitful and desperately sick (Jer. 17:9);
- is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23);
- is not able to come to Jesus unless given to by God (Eph. 2:2);
- must be quickened by God (Eph. 2:4-5);
- cannot choose righteousness until regenerated (Titus 3:5);
- loves darkness rather than light (John 3:19);
- is unrighteous, does not understand, does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12);
- is helpless and ungodly (Rom. 5:6);
- is dead in his trespasses and sins (Eph. 2:1);
- is by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3);
- cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14); and
- is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20).

Given this woeful state of the lost, the only possible solution is that God and God alone must act. The lost are not seeking God, they are running from God, so God must do something to them such that they will be actually able to believe. What does God do? Ezekiel 36:26. Given this, and since not all are saved, it follows that there is a restricted element to salvation. The restriction being for those God has mercifully quickened, those God the Father has given to God the Son as a result of His active and passive obedience in atonement for these persons sins. Those so quickened by God the Holy Spirit are a great multitude no man can number.

What our Lord did was not some potential atonement, but an actual atonement.

AMR

Pure 100% Calvinism. Calvinism (Reformed theology) is a false doctrine that changes the character and intent of the God of the Bible. It's mentor "John Calvin" known as, "The Pope of Geneva," was complicit in the execution murders of over fifty some people who disagreed with Calvin. He also was involved with burning, so-called witches at the stake. Someone once said: "You can take Calvin out of the Catholic church but you can't take the Catholic church out of Calvin." Calvin was an evil man.

 

[Samie]

So your argument against #1 is man has no choice but to do evil and your argument against #2 is non-elect might repent. How does that not conflict? Guy #1 can do nothing. Guy #2 can do something.

I don't think you are understanding me correctly. Please read my post #3 & post #4 again.

 

[Samie]

I'll choose door number 1. Christ died for the sins of ALL humanity, however, only those who hear the Gospel of their salvation and place their faith in Christ as their Savior will reap the benefits. Those who reject God's Grace will stand before Him and be judged according to their works. They will then, be cast into the Lake of Fire for eternity.

Thanks, GM. I think you need to thoroughly address my post #3 quoted below:

I don't teach #1. Why?

#1 requires man to first believe so that he can be in Christ. This implies man is born NOT in Christ. And if one is not in Christ, he is spiritually dead because Christ is our life (Col 3:4). So how can man, while NOT in Christ and therefore dead, able to believe? Didn't Christ Himself say that apart from Him man can do NOTHING (John 15:5)? Why NOTHING? Because the dead can do NOTHING!

To teach #1 is to teach what is diametrically opposite to what Jesus said that apart from Him man can do NOTHING. And yet a vast majority of preachers teach this brand of gospel.

Is becoming part of the body of Christ one of the benefits being reaped by those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ? Please explain your position clearly delineating how it does not contradict Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHiNG.

 

[Grosnick Marowbe]

Thanks, GM. I think you need to thoroughly address my post #3 quoted below:Is becoming part of the body of Christ one of the benefits being reaped by those who hear the gospel and place their faith in Christ? Please explain your position clearly delineating how it does not contradict Jesus' statement that apart from Him man can do NOTHiNG.

I chose the number. I have nothing more to add. I don't feel I owe you an explanation. Obviously, you have an agenda.