Sorry, but I feel like not addressing your post since I feel it presupposes I am a beginner in Christianity:
I think I have already done that in the OP, sister. Would you mind addressing it, please?
Arminians & Calvinists Both Preach A Gospel That Saves No One
- Thread starter Samie
- Start date
And God's statement to Jeremiah of sanctifying him in the womb does not apply to a wide variety of people?
When did the act of trusting happen? After hearing the word of truth - a spiritual act, doable only when one is already in Christ, for when apart from Him man can do NOTHING: he cannot even hear the word of truth.
I don't belong to either camp.
When I evangelize, I don't even mention salvation because it sounds so condemning. I tell people Jesus teaches us to live peacefully and love one another in His Gospel.
Christian world is so chaotic and circus.
You cannot pinpoint the problem.
We just do our best to spread Jesus' love and His teachings individually.
Then you can tell people that they were born already in Christ. That's not condemning anyone.
You & I both know that to be in Christ is to be on our way to heaven, UNLESS & UNTIL our names get blotted out from the book of life for refusing to overcome evil with good. And overcoming is Christ's message of repentance, because repentance is a change of mind for that which is good. IOW, instead of doing evil, do good. Rom 12:21
And overcomers will Christ not blot out from the book of life but will be seated with Christ in His throne even as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne. Rev 3:5, 21.
You are confusing the faith the LORD God demands, prior to salvation, with the faith/faithfulness that results from justification, as part of the believer's walk/sanctification.
Written to already justified saints, encouraging them, in their "walk:"
Galatians 5 KJV
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Not one scripture testifies that you must be "zapped," regenerated, "in order to be able to believe," as those Calvinists clowns assert.
Non-believers don't know what Jesus teaches. That's why it is important to know Jesus and His teachings to purify us from our selfish way of living.
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What a mess-"evangelize"-good news....You have to know bad news, before good news can exist, and be preached.
Translated: You have no purpose on earth, or, obviously, on TOL.
Good day to you, sir.
Scriptures don't classify faith into two the way you do. There is only one faith - the faith of Jesus which God apportions to all.
KJV Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism
The fruit of the Spirit comes AFTER one is in Christ, NOT before.
Christ Himself made the statement that when one is not in Him he can NOTHING:
NAS John 15:5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing.
Yet you insist that while NOT in Him, man can do SOMETHING - he can believe - to be in Him.
ttruscott
Well-known member
IF they are lost sheep then they must be sheep, that is,in Christ's fold, flock, family and church as His elect.
IF they are sheep gone astray then, they went astray, Christ did not lose or reject them. It is their fault only they are astray, that is, it must be by their free will, not their creation they are astray.
IF they are RETURNED to Christ at their conversion, but were sinners at conception or birth when did they GO astray?? 1 Peter 2:25 For "you were like sheep going astray," but now you have RETURNED to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls. They heard the truth because as His, they could hear Him when He called them to return to the Father.
The prodigal son left HIS father and family to go astray into sin city but experiencing the disaster that choice was, returned to his Shepherd, his father and the family. That his return was facilitated by the Father's grace through faith is taught elsewhere.
You seemed to have not answered your own question in your post: "When did they go astray?"
Both Calvinists and Arminians teach that people are born in sin, and therefore born already lost. But in the parables of the lost sheep, lost coin and lost son, it appears that Jesus taught that people do not start out in life already lost. Before the sheep got lost, it was with its sphepherd; before the coin was lost, it was with its owner; before the son went lost, he was with his father.
So with us. We did not begin life already lost. We were born NOT lost. And to be NOT lost is to be in Christ. Hence people are born in Christ. Went astray. Then returned.
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Paul says in Romans 8 those "in Christ" set there minds on the "Spirit".
Where do you get your ideas about being "in Christ"?
Again, Both Arminians and Calvinists teach that people are born in sin. Hence,
If one is born in sin, he is not in Christ. If one is not in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. If one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If one cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe. If one cannot believe, then according to both camps, he cannot be saved.
It necessarily follows that in the gospel that both camps preach, one born in sin cannot be saved, and therefore both camps preach a gospel that saves no one.
If one is born in sin, he is not in Christ. If one is not in Christ, he cannot bear fruit because only those in Christ can bear fruit. If one cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If one cannot have faith, he cannot believe because faith is needed to believe. If one cannot believe, then according to both camps, he cannot be saved.
It necessarily follows that in the gospel that both camps preach, one born in sin cannot be saved, and therefore both camps preach a gospel that saves no one.
Here's the gospel that saved and saves all descendants of Adam & Eve, and will save all who overcomes evil with good.
In the gospel that He preached, Christ commanded people to repent and believe the gospel. In the OT, God commanded people to repent (Ezek 18:30). In the NT, God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Hence, all people are commanded to repent. Repent or perish.
If God commands people, He wants them to obey. If He wants people to obey, He knows they are capable of obeying. If people are capable of obeying, they can do SOMETHING. If people can do SOMETHING, they are in Christ because apart from Him, they can do NOTHING.
Therefore, people starts out in life already in Christ. How so?
Because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world right after the emergency occurred in Eden and saved Adam through Christ that same day He fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ!
This saving act of God was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
Repentance is change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good. Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).
Mark 1:14-15
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 13:3 . . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
14 Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God,
15 And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.
Luke 13:3 . . . except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
In the gospel that He preached, Christ commanded people to repent and believe the gospel. In the OT, God commanded people to repent (Ezek 18:30). In the NT, God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). Hence, all people are commanded to repent. Repent or perish.
If God commands people, He wants them to obey. If He wants people to obey, He knows they are capable of obeying. If people are capable of obeying, they can do SOMETHING. If people can do SOMETHING, they are in Christ because apart from Him, they can do NOTHING.
Therefore, people starts out in life already in Christ. How so?
Because God implemented the plan of salvation He devised before the foundation of the world right after the emergency occurred in Eden and saved Adam through Christ that same day He fell into sin, an act that cost the Father His only begotten Son - the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. With Adam in Christ, all his descendants are born in Christ!
This saving act of God was manifested and revealed in the life, death, resurrection and heavenly ministry of our Lord & Savior Jesus Christ.
Repentance is change of mind for that which is good. Instead of doing evil, do good. IOW, overcome evil with good. Overcomers will Christ NOT blot out from the book of life and will be seated with Him in His throne as He Himself also overcame and sat down with the Father in His throne (Rev 3:5, 21). All NOT blotted out will be allowed entry to heaven (Rev 21:27); all blotted out will have their portion in the lake of fire (Rev 20:15).
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
Since you also derived your idea of being in Christ from Scriptures, then we are on the same boat.
For me, people are born in Christ, instead of born in sin. Do you believe likewise?
If No, can you tell me how people born in sin can be in Christ?
Jamie Gigliotti
New member
A person can become in Christ by placing their trust and faith in Christ; repenting, turning away from the flesh/sinful nature/themselves and turning to God, through Christ's reconciling sacrifice and gift of the Holy Spirit to change hearts wIth His love and power.
These phrases seem synonymous in Scripture.
1. Sowing to the flesh/self Vs. Sowing to the Spirit. Galatians 6:8
2. Slave to sin Vs. Slave to God. Romans 6:20-22
3. Condemnation/death Vs. in Christ/life. Romans chapter 8
4. In darkness/don't know Him Vs. In the light/ know Him. 1 John chapter 2
If a person can become in Christ by placing his faith in Christ, then he can never be in Christ.
Again, here's why:
If a person is not in Christ, he cannot bear fruit. If he cannot bear fruit, he cannot have faith because faith is fruit of the Spirit. If he cannot have faith, he has no faith to place in Christ. If he has no faith to place in Christ, he cannot place his faith in Christ. If he cannot place his faith in Christ, he cannot be in Christ according to your belief.
It appears from your belief system that a person not in Christ can never become in Christ.
ttruscott
Well-known member
Simple but denies scripture to my mind. Psalm 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth... is clear to me though I reject Rom 5:12 as the reason. Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.
My theory that we sinned in Sheol pre-conception contradicts not one verse and is supported by many.