ARHCIVE: The impossibility of atheism ...

Hilston

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Why atheism is impossible ...

Why atheism is impossible ...

Hi Folks,

[Note: I could not add the image I refer to in the text below. It is now a link to the image; it will pop up in a new window -- Jim, 9:55 EST, 07/16/03]

Please forgive the delay. While I did not want to give this a cursory treatment, I neither wanted to delay this any longer. I will offer this now (it may need some further tweaking to be clear), and offer more later.

The impossibility of atheism

(Not of its existence, but of its verity)

The atheistic worldview is impossible because is inherently self-refuting, it is internally incoherent, and it is unable to cogently account for reality and the intelligibility of human experience. Aussie Thinker has offered his explanation. I wish everyone could read it, and like me, recognize how fanciful, naive and utterly uncompelling it is. I do not wish to be insulting or condescending, but I am torn between wondering if Aussie Thinker really does know how inadequate his explanation is (but is unaccustomed to having it challenged), or if he really is that naive and unaware of what he is saying.

Why is atheism impossible? The atheist worldview presumes to operate on unwarranted assumptions, believing, with no rational basis, that there is order, connection, predictability or necessity in human experience and reality. But what are the bases of this assumption? Are one's contingent and particular experiences sufficient to justify these assumptions? Why is it that we, as humans, draw abstract universals out of concrete particulars? The atheist cannot answer the problems posed by the existence of universal laws and the orderliness (unity) that is communicated to us in our experience, especially given that our experience is particular (non-universal) and changing (diversity). Atheists cannot rationally deal with the "one-and-the-many" problem. Dualists have tried, but the result is just as irrational as the materialist view. Atheists who simply pretend that there isn't a problem between universals and particulars succeed only in convincing me that they haven't reflected adequately on the problem (or they're being disingenuous).

On the atheist worldview, the "mind" is merely a phenomenon of this product of chance we call the brain, whose functions are as much constrained by the laws of chemistry, biology and physics as all other material objects in the universe. However, as merely another chance arrangement of physical molecules, how can the "thinking" of this physical organ know anything about abstract, non-physical, universal concepts such as induction, necessity, or causation? In a contingent realm of discrete, random facts and events, how does a brain, which is itself a product of random facts and events, warrant such concepts as universals (induction), causality or moral standards? The random and unconnected "facts" that man confronts in his daily experience do not themselves justify categorization, predictability, induction, causality, etc. The assumption that the laws of logic can be taken as objective, universal, unchanging [Parmenides], and applicable to the world of contingent material changing facts [Heraclitus] is unwarranted, especially given how different in character are the assumed laws from material facts.

It is a faith-based assumption that man's space-time experience can be described, let alone warranted, according any kind of unifying principles. To merely stipulate that order exists and that categories can be applied to discrete and contingent facts in the universe is either a naive or a disingenuous failure to adequately resolve whether the order in the physical world is due to the nature of the particles it comprises (atomism), or events occurring according to some pre-existent laws (stoicism), or due to some Hegelian logical necessity based on some assumed greater underlying dialectic reality (Sorry about the run-on sentence). Regardless of which theory is chosen (and it is ever arbitrary), they all blindly assume some kind of universal order that cannot be justified by the worldviews in which we find them.

Thus, the atheistic worldview is unable to bridge the chasm between order [Parmenides] and change [Heraclitus], unity and diversity, universals and particulars, the many and the one (see diagram linked here). Any attempt to bring the two realms together on non-theistic grounds results in making nonsense of both, which further renders intellectually self-defeating all arguments against God. The problem posed to the atheist is that of justifying how he (a) imposes unifying principles of his own mind upon an external realm not controlled by his mind, while at the same time (b) claiming to respect the individuality and uniqueness of every fact in the world, which mitigates against the notion of unifying principles. So on the one hand, the atheist imposes the universal principles of his worldview in advance, which undermines the so-called "science" of his position, and on the other hand, respecting the novelty and particularity of discrete facts and events in his experience undermines the intelligibility of those facts. This makes any attempt to rationally organize and interpret evidence utterly inane. Some atheists admit the inability to justifiably account for the uniformity of nature ("It happened because it happened"); some admit their inability to account for the laws of logic ("they're just there, like an armpit"). With these admissions, however, should also come the recognition that using logic and inference order to explain or understand things is baldly begging the very question, assuming the verity of a system in advance. Therefore, such a worldview comes down to an arbitrary preference, and not an intellectual necessity, and despite this, the atheist blindly assumes to attach meaning to his experience. Of course, I don't expect the atheist to readily acknowledge, but I will expose it nonetheless. Atheists ought not to be allowed to run roughshod over Christian Theism, asserting some claim of intellectual superiority, scientific validity, and rational fact-based/evidentiary conclusions. It's all lip-service, and when it is exposed for what it is, it is shown to be wholly arbitrary. blindly religious and faith-based. For these reasons, among many, the atheistic worldview is impossible and cannot be true. More later.

Jim
 
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flash

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Atheists do not need to prove anything to not believe in gods. They do not need to justify anything to not believe in gods. Rather, it is the theists who have to show that there is a god! Your argument is a god of the gaps argument. You can't justify induction or moving from the particular to the universal, so you make up something that will explain it. The problem is that your stopgap invention does not add anything to your predictive power.

Do you believe in the validity of moving from particulars to universals? If, after every time you heard the phrase "Look out Hilston!" you were struck with a blunt object, how long before you would cover your head upon hearing the phrase? How would you justify your action? By positing a God?!? Why would you even need to justify your action?

Even *if* it were necessary for atheists to justify universals, and even *if* there were no atheists who could justify universals, you still need to prove a god exists! Until then, atheism is a valid worldview, and you have not show the impossibility of it at all.
 

cheeezywheeezy

New member
Mr. Ben,

You write:

1. We don't know the universe hasn't existed forever.

Since we know from the physical laws of nature that a fire cannot burn forever and that a rock (or matter) cannot come from nothing, we CAN know that the universe hasn't existed forever.

Using the PHYSICAL laws of nature we know that the PHYSICAL universe is materail and contains fires (stars) so physically and logically it could not have had a natural begining nor have existed forever.

I am pleased that you do believe however that it may have existed forever. The reason is, if you do...then it violates the most fundamental laws of nature...and the universe itself is therefore SUPERnatural. This shows that you are at least willing to admit that there exists a SUPERnatural explanation to some natural phenomena....a.k.a the existence of the physical universe.

Also, you state that:

"And since Thomas defines God as immutable.. "

Who cares? Just because Billy thinks God is green doesn't make God green! God is not immutable....God does indeed change.

How? Well for one...God BECAME a man in the person Jesus Christ. God was not always a man. He became a man. That was a MAJOR change.

Several times throughout the Bible God changes his mind when dealing with people. God reacts to persons communicating with Him. Several time, as a result of prayers, pleading, etc... God changed His mind.

So, in conclusion....since you do believe in the SUPERnatural...why not go ahead and take the next step and believe in the SUPERnatural God.
 

flash

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cheeezywheeezy,

At best all you are doing is presenting yet another God of the Gaps Argument. They sure are popular on this board.
 

Hilston

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Hall of Fame
Silly rules ...

Silly rules ...

Hi Aussie,

Aussie writes:
These cannot exist according to Jim unless there is a God who directed them to exist.
If that were simply all I've said, then maybe you would have a case. You believe atheism is a superior view, else you would not hold it. But you've admitted that atheism cannot account for the very things you use to function in your everyday life. You've admitted that my worldview, which can account for them whether you likeit or not, is coherent and consistent. Yet you prefer the blind, irrational, faith-based view instead of the cogent, rational faith-based view.

Aussie writes:
Mind you this same God is not beholden to this same silly rule.
I find this funny. When an athiest demands evidence, it's a perfectly valid "rule", on their view, yet they cannot account for the very standards they presume to impose as "rules". Then, when challenged to justify or to provide the necessary preconditions for these standards they impose, they call it "a silly rule."

Aussie writes:
He refuses to accept that even though his God could always existed .. it is not possible for the Universe to have always existed.
The eternal existence of God is rational. The eternal existence of a material, orderly, yet changing, universe is not. And not because "a rock cannot create itself" and "a fire cannot burn forever," but because of a more fundamental problem: Uniformity and contingency. The atheist universe is impotent to deal with these. This is not merely a god of the gaps argument. This is a fundamental dilemma for the atheist at the very foundation of reason. Nothing is "waiting to be discovered by science" to answer this.

Aussie writes:
Further that our consciousness and own self made notions of absolutes etc. are just products of this Universe like a Star or a Nebula..
If you want to go around believing that things can become their contradictions, that's fine. But don't come here and pretend to be a rational freethinking "bright".

Aussie writes:
Like all theist arguments they have to suspend any rules of evidence and science..
Like the way you do when you say, "It just happened because it happened"? Apply your own rule of evidence and science and prove that your reasoning and observations actually and accurately correspond with reality. You can't? You mean you have to suspend your rules in this case -- and you just accept it because you don't like the alternative? Isnt there a name for this kind of behavior?

Aussie writes:
I can never fathom why they bother arguing at all.. why don’t they just say God did it all Yesterday and put everything (including memories) in place.
You should already know the answer to this, Aussie.

Jim
 

Mr. Ben

New member
1. We don't know the universe hasn't existed forever.

Since we know from the physical laws of nature that a fire cannot burn forever and that a rock (or matter) cannot come from nothing, we CAN know that the universe hasn't existed forever.

Why can't something come from nothing? Be specific. You are not allowed to use the statement "I've never seen it happen before". The fact is that things seem to come from nothing all the time in QM.

Using the PHYSICAL laws of nature we know that the PHYSICAL universe is materail and contains fires (stars) so physically and logically it could not have had a natural begining nor have existed forever.

We believe that the universe's timeline originated with the Big Bang. We do not know wether there was anything prior to that.. but we don't know that there wasn't. We simply can't say.

I am pleased that you do believe however that it may have existed forever. The reason is, if you do...then it violates the most fundamental laws of nature...

Nonsense. It does no such thing. Theists are long on claims and superficial explanations.. but short on real evidence and argument.

and the universe itself is therefore SUPERnatural. This shows that you are at least willing to admit that there exists a SUPERnatural explanation to some natural phenomena....a.k.a the existence of the physical universe.

Supernatural phenomena could exist in this universe. We hear reports of supernatural phenomena all the time. However, were they to be repeatable and testable.. they would no longer be classified as supernatural.. but another part of nature. Unfortunately supernatural events exist typically only in the adled minds of those who report them.

As for the physical laws of the universe being such that they would permit time before the Big Bang.. this does not imply any sort of God, Angels, or magical hocus pocus.

"And since Thomas defines God as immutable.. "

Who cares? Just because Billy thinks God is green doesn't make God green! God is not immutable....God does indeed change.

Not according to jjjiggy. His proof of God is self contradictory.

Several times throughout the Bible God changes his mind when dealing with people. God reacts to persons communicating with Him. Several time, as a result of prayers, pleading, etc... God changed His mind.

Heh.. no kidding

So, in conclusion....since you do believe in the SUPERnatural...why not go ahead and take the next step and believe in the SUPERnatural God.

Uhh... right now I am busy believing in the spirit of Buddah, Allah, and the Mantis God of the Bantu Tribesmen. I'll eventually work my way around to Christianity.... maybe.








More cheese please!!!
 

Aussie Thinker

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Jim,

Aussie Thinker has offered his explanation. I wish everyone could read it, and like me, recognize how fanciful, naive and utterly uncompelling it is. I do not wish to be insulting or condescending, but I am torn between wondering if Aussie Thinker really does know how inadequate his explanation is (but is unaccustomed to having it challenged), or if he really is that naive and unaware of what he is saying.

Others have read my explanation and find it completely coherent and compelling. It makes perfect sense and stops 1 step short of stepping into fancy like your explanation does. You find it incoherent as you are blinded by faith in a mythical inexplicable, illogical and patently ridiculous God. Your myopia does not allow you to comprehend a world view that does not include your strange deity !

Why is atheism impossible? The atheist worldview presumes to operate on unwarranted assumptions, believing, with no rational basis, that there is order, connection, predictability or necessity in human experience and reality.

Here is where you branch into inanity. The assumptions of our reality are completely warranted. Your mumbo jumbo about matrix type versions of reality are not SOLVED by adding a God into the mix. As I have stated 100 times before, you accept your reality as coming from a God (which just happened) I accept our reality as just happening (see the shortened step?)

But what are the bases of this assumption? Are one's contingent and particular experiences sufficient to justify these assumptions? Why is it that we, as humans, draw abstract universals out of concrete particulars? The atheist cannot answer the problems posed by the existence of universal laws and the orderliness (unity) that is communicated to us in our experience, especially given that our experience is particular (non-universal) and changing (diversity). Atheists cannot rationally deal with the "one-and-the-many" problem. Dualists have tried, but the result is just as irrational as the materialist view. Atheists who simply pretend that there isn't a problem between universals and particulars succeed only in convincing me that they haven't reflected adequately on the problem (or they're being disingenuous).

It is obvious to an atheist that everything we see and all the laws we perceive are products of a natural universe. The FACT that everything makes sense implies NATURE.. if things did not make sense then THAT would point to supernatural occurrences and therefore imply a GOD ! That you KNOW everything has a natural origin and yet add some mystical supernatural layer in shows that your need for a God is overcoming your human born rationality.

On the atheist worldview, the "mind" is merely a phenomenon of this product of chance we call the brain, whose functions are as much constrained by the laws of chemistry, biology and physics as all other material objects in the universe. However, as merely another chance arrangement of physical molecules, how can the "thinking" of this physical organ know anything about abstract, non-physical, universal concepts such as induction, necessity, or causation? In a contingent realm of discrete, random facts and events, how does a brain, which is itself a product of random facts and events, warrant such concepts as universals (induction), causality or moral standards? The random and unconnected "facts" that man confronts in his daily experience do not themselves justify categorization, predictability, induction, causality, etc. The assumption that the laws of logic can be taken as objective, universal, unchanging [Parmenides], and applicable to the world of contingent material changing facts [Heraclitus] is unwarranted, especially given how different in character are the assumed laws from material facts.

All completely normal functions of a brain evolved from a Universe which is ordered. All the things you talk about are human invented concepts which man utilises to comprehend the Universe. You assumption that these laws etc. are universal and separate to man is only that.. your assumption.. born of the need to have a Supernatural Deity. The laws etc are mere constructs of man.. like God. If you think about it you have just constructed a God to account for the laws I just say the laws themselves are a construct (see again I save an illogical step)

It is a faith-based assumption that man's space-time experience can be described, let alone warranted, according any kind of unifying principles. To merely stipulate that order exists and that categories can be applied to discrete and contingent facts in the universe is either a naive or a disingenuous failure to adequately resolve whether the order in the physical world is due to the nature of the particles it comprises (atomism), or events occurring according to some pre-existent laws (stoicism), or due to some Hegelian logical necessity based on some assumed greater underlying dialectic reality (Sorry about the run-on sentence). Regardless of which theory is chosen (and it is ever arbitrary), they all blindly assume some kind of universal order that cannot be justified by the worldviews in which we find them.

I know that theists (as they are so into a faith based world) think everyone lives by faith but you just have to give up that notion. The fact that we see this Universe as ordered is simply because we are a product of it. It is IMPOSSIBLE for a universe to produce a creature that would not find it own universe ordered ! What astounds me is this is so OBVIOUS yet you have to invent a deity to explain the order ???... when DISORDER is actually what would imply something supernatural !

Thus, the atheistic worldview is unable to bridge the chasm between order [Parmenides] and change [Heraclitus], unity and diversity, universals and particulars, the many and the one (see diagram). Any attempt to bring the two realms together on non-theistic grounds results in making nonsense of both, which further renders intellectually self-defeating all arguments against God. The problem posed to the atheist is that of justifying how he (a) imposes unifying principles of his own mind upon an external realm not controlled by his mind, while at the same time

You are lost in a fantasy world of justification. The simple fact that we see an ordered universe is because we are product of it. Our concepts we create to deal with the universe require no justification except our own. We invent them as useful tools .. just like the wheel.

(b) claiming to respect the individuality and uniqueness of every fact in the world, which mitigates against the notion of unifying principles. So on the one hand, the atheist imposes the universal principles of his worldview in advance, which undermines the so-called "science" of his position, and on the other hand, respecting the novelty and particularity of discrete facts and events in his experience undermines the intelligibility of those facts. This makes any attempt to rationally organize and interpret evidence utterly inane.

Your ridiculous circuitous argument is basically saying.. God gave us reason so when you use it to say there is no God you are being inane. You completely ignore the simple fact that reason developed along with our large brain it was not “given” to us by a supernatural deity.

Some atheists admit the inability to justifiably account for the uniformity of nature ("It happened because it happened"); some admit their inability to account for the laws of logic ("they're just there, like an armpit").

At some stage BOTH of us end up with a “It just happened”.. me with the universe you with God.. difference is I have reduced the level of complexity and confusion. The “laws” you speak of are conceived by MAN.. we invent them as a concept. Do you understand that ?

With these admissions, however, should also come the recognition that using logic and inference order to explain or understand things is baldly begging the very question, assuming the verity of a system in advance. Therefore, such a worldview comes down to an arbitrary preference, and not an intellectual necessity, and despite this, the atheist blindly assumes to attach meaning to his experience.

There you go again assuming because YOU need meaning that the atheist does too. It is VERY clear to me that these constructs of logic etc that man uses are useful cerebral tools to make sense of the universe.. they are just the same as you inventing a God to make sense of your universe. Of course both out “inventions” are “preferences”… mine is just a logical sensible one.. yours’ steps off into the realms of fantasy.

Of course, I don't expect the atheist to readily acknowledge, but I will expose it nonetheless. Atheists ought not to be allowed to run roughshod over Christian Theism, asserting some claim of intellectual superiority, scientific validity, and rational fact-based/evidentiary conclusions. It's all lip-service, and when it is exposed for what it is, it is shown to be wholly arbitrary. blindly religious and faith-based. For these reasons, among many, the atheistic worldview is impossible and cannot be true. More later.

Atheism scares you doesn’t it Jim ? I can see that you are intelligent. It is obvious by the twists, turns and hoops you are putting your mind through to justify your God fantasy. But it is clear you are smart enough and have questioned you belief often enough to see how clear the atheist worldview really is. Your only defence against your own logic is this house of cards justification you have built up. Don’t feel to bad about giving up and coming over to the “dark side”. It’s not really dark.. in fact it is quite illuminated.

Steve
 
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Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Aforementioned diagram ...

Aforementioned diagram ...

Please note: I made reference to a diagram in my previous post. I was unable to get the image to show up within the text of the post, so I instead added only the link to my post. You will now find it there, or you can just click here. But please refer to my discussion about it as well. It will make better sense with the accompanying text.

Jim
 

heusdens

New member
Re: Silly rules ...

Re: Silly rules ...

Originally posted by Hilston
The eternal existence of God is rational. The eternal existence of a material, orderly, yet changing, universe is not. And not because "a rock cannot create itself" and "a fire cannot burn forever," but because of a more fundamental problem: Uniformity and contingency. The atheist universe is impotent to deal with these. This is not merely a god of the gaps argument. This is a fundamental dilemma for the atheist at the very foundation of reason. Nothing is "waiting to be discovered by science" to answer this.

The eternal existence of God is not rational, because by your own argument and definition, God existed eternally in immaterial (consciousness; spiritual) form, before he created the material world.

However, there can not be consciousness when there is no objective, material world., because:
1. Consciousness does not exist independend of matter
2. Consciousness is subjective, but there can not be subjectiveness without there being an objective world, to which consciousness could relate in a subjective way.
[Same as that a program can not run and can not perform anything when thee is a) no hardware b) no peripherals to "communicate" with an outside world. A "solipsistic" program running without either input or output, is rather useless]
3. The existence of God in eternal form of subjective consciousness, without there being an objective world, makes the viewpoint of God that of a solipsist.
4. Solipsism is an incorrect worldview, and rejected by almost everybody.

If you want to go around believing that things can become their contradictions, that's fine. But don't come here and pretend to be a rational freethinking "bright".

It is quite clear that you don't haver any knowledge about dialectics.

Like the way you do when you say, "It just happened because it happened"? Apply your own rule of evidence and science and prove that your reasoning and observations actually and accurately correspond with reality. You can't? You mean you have to suspend your rules in this case -- and you just accept it because you don't like the alternative? Isnt there a name for this kind of behavior?

The creation of everything from nothing as a concept is same mysterious and indistinguishable with the concept of the creation of everything from God. They are the same.

It's a shame that some atheist confess to the one, and refute the other, since there is no difference whatsoever!
 
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heusdens

New member
A program named God

A program named God

/* Program name :
God

Hardware requirements / peripherals :
none (are created after program completed)
*/

void main ()
{
while (1) ; -- loop forever!
}

/* After completion the WORLD occurs! */
 

Aussie Thinker

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Huesdens writes,

The creation of everything from nothing as a concept is same mysterious and indistinguishable with the concept of the creation of everything from God. They are the same.

It's a shame that some atheist confess to the one, and refute the other, since there is no difference whatsoever!

Any sensible atheist I know agrees.. however the creation from God adds an extra unnecessary step.

Atheist view..

Step 1 : Universe always was

Theist View

Step 1 : God always was
Step 2 : God created the Universe

Why the unnecessary extra step ???
 

heusdens

New member
Originally posted by Mr. Ben
Why can't something come from nothing? Be specific. You are not allowed to use the statement "I've never seen it happen before". The fact is that things seem to come from nothing all the time in QM.

Is that so? You mean in the new Quantum Magic explenation of reality?

Whatever your fancy is, there is no possible way in which the absolute inexistence of anything can lead to something, whatever infinitesimal minimal something.

It simply can't. No possible way.

(not even when you believe in God)


We believe that the universe's timeline originated with the Big Bang. We do not know wether there was anything prior to that.. but we don't know that there wasn't. We simply can't say.

However popular this new religion is, the timeline does not originate at the Big Bang. Neither is there any scientific theory that says so. If you can point to one that says so indesputable, I will eat my hat.

PS. I have no hat, but if you state is true, it will be no problem creating one from nothing.

Nonsense. It does no such thing. Theists are long on claims and superficial explanations.. but short on real evidence and argument.

And some atheist present their worldviews as atheistic, without there being any difference with a theistic worldview.



Supernatural phenomena could exist in this universe. We hear reports of supernatural phenomena all the time. However, were they to be repeatable and testable.. they would no longer be classified as supernatural.. but another part of nature. Unfortunately supernatural events exist typically only in the adled minds of those who report them.

The only thing that can not exist in the universe is inexistence.

(wether one calls that "nothingness", "begin of time" or "God" makes no difference!)

As for the physical laws of the universe being such that they would permit time before the Big Bang.. this does not imply any sort of God, Angels, or magical hocus pocus.

Wrong!

Physical laws imply that there is no conceivable begin to change and time. Physicists can not make physics from utterly nothing.

The Big Bang event just BEGS for there being physicall stuff before that time.
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
Solipsists unite!

Solipsists unite!

heusdens writes:
The eternal existence of God is not rational, because by your own argument and definition, God existed eternally in immaterial (consciousness; spiritual) form, before he created the material world.
What is irrational about that?

heusdens writes:
However, there can not be consciousness when there is no objective, material world., because:
1. Consciousness does not exist independend of matter ...
Sure it does. God is conscious, and is non-material. The angels have consciousness, but they are non-material. The souls burning in hell are conscious, and they are non-material.
heusdens writes:
2. Consciousness is subjective, but there can not be subjectiveness without there being an objective world, to which consciousness could relate in a subjective way.
How is it, on your worldview, that there can be both subjectivity and objectivity? Is the universe uniform and objective? Or is it subjective and contingent? How can it be both?

heusdens writes:
[Same as that a program can not run and can not perform anything when there is a) no hardware...
When did you last encounter a conscious program? And what sort of tests did you perform to ascertain whether or not the conscious component of the program was hardware-dependent?

heusdens writes:
... b) no peripherals to "communicate" with an outside world.
Do you have such "peripherals"? Have you tested them to see if they work? How did you go about testing them?

heusdens writes:
A "solipsistic" program running without either input or output, is rather useless]
That's some pretty fancy question-begging. How do you know that you yourself are not a self-deceived solipsism, simply existing and informing yourself of things you already know but deliberately forgot in order to make your existence tolerable? That would be useful, wouldn't it?

heusdens writes:
3. The existence of God in eternal form of subjective consciousness, without there being an objective world, makes the viewpoint of God that of a solipsist.
That's a self-refuting statement, heusdens. If you yourself know (you do know don't you) that you have self-awareness, then at least you know that you exist. Thus, for you to posit a solipsistic god, assuming you, too, exist (you're the one proposing such a god), is a self-refuting statement.

heusdens writes:
4. Solipsism is an incorrect worldview, and rejected by almost everybody.
Duh. Of course, for the patently ineluctable reason I gave above.

Jim wrote: If you want to go around believing that things can become their contradictions, that's fine. But don't come here and pretend to be a rational freethinking "bright".

heusdens writes:
It is quite clear that you don't have any knowledge about dialectics.
What gives you that impression?
 

heusdens

New member
Aussie Thinker:

Don't ask me, ask the theists about that.

Perhaps they are a bit affraid of the implications.
Anyway, theists have an upside down worldview, and have an incorrect vision of what is the primary stuff (matter or consciousness).
 

heusdens

New member
Re: Solipsists unite!

Re: Solipsists unite!

Originally posted by Hilston
What is irrational about that?

Sure it does. God is conscious, and is non-material. The angels have consciousness, but they are non-material. The souls burning in hell are conscious, and they are non-material.

What is rational about that?

How is it, on your worldview, that there can be both subjectivity and objectivity? Is the universe uniform and objective? Or is it subjective and contingent? How can it be both?

Because there is consciousness that reflects on an objective world. Consciousness is not defined without there being an objective world, since then nothing would exist.

When did you last encounter a conscious program? And what sort of tests did you perform to ascertain whether or not the conscious component of the program was hardware-dependent?

Answers:
-I run one.
-Self-test (see below under 'verification')

heusdens writes:Do you have such "peripherals"? Have you tested them to see if they work? How did you go about testing them?

As a matter of fact I have! They are my eyes, ears, touch, smell, hands, feet, etc. (and also my mouth and stomach and penis and anus, for the energy supply and waiste).

I test them every day. I run self-tests every day. I compare resulsts with other programs, and I extend my peripherals with outside things, and I read knowledge, and compare that with own results.

heusdens writes:That's some pretty fancy question-begging. How do you know that you yourself are not a self-deceived solipsism, simply existing and informing yourself of things you already know but deliberately forgot in order to make your existence tolerable? That would be useful, wouldn't it?

I verified that solipsism is incorrect.
Wanna hear how I verified this?

It's here!

And by the way also the mother program which had spawned me told me, and I know that is not a ly!

heusdens writes:That's a self-refuting statement, heusdens. If you yourself know (you do know don't you) that you have self-awareness, then at least you know that you exist. Thus, for you to posit a solipsistic god, assuming you, too, exist (you're the one proposing such a god), is a self-refuting statement.

I am not proposing this God, since there are others that propose such a God. I hold it that the only concept I can form in my mind, would be that of a solipsist worldview which I know is incorrect.
Therefore I refute that God.
 

Aussie Thinker

BANNED
Banned
Heusdens,

The Q was purely rhetorical.. I KNOW you know the answer !

Theists,

Here is an analogy which shows the flaw in Jim’s thinking.

Like our concept of logic, fundamental laws and absolutes the Wheel is another invention of man.

Did the wheel always exist before man invented it.

Yes.. boulders and tree trunks could roll.. things that were round and given the right impetus became a wheel .. long before man existed.

But can man justify the wheel.

No.. but he can justify using it. It is a helpful device.

So as the wheel always existed and as it cannot be justified… it means God is a big wheel !
 

Hilston

Active member
Hall of Fame
No tabula rasa ...

No tabula rasa ...

Flash writes:
Atheists do not need to prove anything to not believe in gods.
Sure you do. You just can't come waltzing in here, claiming to have a defensible worldview and not be required to prove anything. If you want to just take your ball and bat and go home, no one's stopping you. But if you want to run with the big dogs, you have to get up off the porch.

Flash writes:
They do not need to justify anything to not believe in gods.
Wrong, Flash. You beg the very question in making the statement.

Flash writes:
Rather, it is the theists who have to show that there is a god!
You beg the question. The Bible says you already know He exists and that you're accountable to Him. For your view to be true, you've got to justify your assumption of some default tabula rasa, which you can't do. The Bible says your default condition is belief in God, and that you work aggressively to deny, distort and distance yourself from that truth. So now the burden is back on you.

Flash writes:
Your argument is a god of the gaps argument.
How so?

Flash writes:
You can't justify induction or moving from the particular to the universal, so you make up something that will explain it.
As I mentioned to Aussie, this is not a matter of waiting for science to come up with or discover the explanation for the bacterial flagellum or some other so-called "irreducible complexity" argument. This is on an epistemic level that does not come under the purview of the scientific method. Surely you must see this. Even if someone were to ludicrously posit some kind of "scientific proof" or "empirical justification" for induction, the question is massively begged, because science is itself an inductive process.

Flash writes:
The problem is that your stopgap invention does not add anything to your predictive power.
You've got it exactly backward. What you call a "stopgap invention" is the exclusive accounting for induction, and not only does the Christian worldview have predictive power, it alone can account for predictability. Period. That is to say, atheists must in fact borrow from the Christian worldview for even the simplest predication, let alone predictability and induction.

Flash writes:
Do you believe in the validity of moving from particulars to universals?
Of course I do. I never said otherwise. You and I both know it is valid. However, I can account for its validity, its universality and invariance both conceptually and in our experience. As a Christian, I can bridge the gap between the changing particulars of contingent experience and the universal invariant nature of the abstract laws we use to describe and understand it. The atheistic worldview cannot, and indeed borrows from the Christian worldview in order to even try to make sense of the particulars and the universals.

Flash writes:
If, after every time you heard the phrase "Look out Hilston!" you were struck with a blunt object, how long before you would cover your head upon hearing the phrase? How would you justify your action? By positing a God?!? Why would you even need to justify your action?
Again, its not a question of the validity of induction. We both know it works. What I'm talking about is the necessary precondition of induction and what accounts for its law-like character in the realm of contingent human experience.

Flash writes:
Even *if* it were necessary for atheists to justify universals, and even *if* there were no atheists who could justify universals, you still need to prove a god exists!
Not in this thread. Read the title. But I will be glad to oblige anyway. The proof of the Christian God is the fact that it is not possible for Him not to exist. That is what I've been describing.

Flash writes:
Until then, atheism is a valid worldview, and you have not show the impossibility of it at all.
Maybe you need to read a bit more carefully. Your worldview is irrational, Flash, and riddled with question-begging assumptions and hypocritical standards that your own view cannot accommodate. It is inconsistent and arbitrary, and wholly untenable on rational philosophical grounds.

Solipsists, unite!

Jim
 

Mr. Ben

New member
But what are the bases of this assumption? Are one's contingent and particular experiences sufficient to justify these assumptions? Why is it that we, as humans, draw abstract universals out of concrete particulars? The atheist cannot answer the problems posed by the existence of universal laws and the orderliness (unity) that is communicated to us in our experience, especially given that our experience is particular (non-universal) and changing (diversity).

Why not?

Neural networks extract universals from particulars. That's what they do and how they work. You and I and everybody we know is equipped with a device that generalizes from particular perceptual input. It's called a brain.

Atheists cannot rationally deal with the "one-and-the-many" problem.

Sure they can.

Dualists have tried, but the result is just as irrational as the materialist view. Atheists who simply pretend that there isn't a problem between universals and particulars succeed only in convincing me that they haven't reflected adequately on the problem (or they're being disingenuous).

Nonsense.

Metaphysics is not the proper realm to discuss such matters.. as it doesn't take into account what particulars and universals really ARE. There are concrete descriptions of these things which are based on the fundamentals of information theory and data processing.

Archaic metaphysical terms only cloud the issue. We can discuss these matters using these old fashioned terms, but what we're really talking about are physical processes that take place in real brains.
 

Mr. Ben

New member
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Rather, it is the theists who have to show that there is a god!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

You beg the question. The Bible says you already know He exists and that you're accountable to Him.

Who gives a rats ear what the Bible says.

For your view to be true, you've got to justify your assumption of some default tabula rasa, which you can't do.

For an athiest view to be true, there must be no evidence of any God. There is no solid evidence of any God beyond the subjective claims of various believers (most of which are contradictory).. therefore the atheist view is true.

The Bible says your default condition is belief in God, and that you work aggressively to deny, distort and distance yourself from that truth. So now the burden is back on you.

Again.. who gives a rats eye what the Bible says. Richard Dawkins says that the onus is on you, and so does Bertrand Russell.. do you care what these people say? Likewise with the Bible.

The existence of any entity is proven by positive evidence FOR its existence, not evidence for its NON existence. If we were to assume that everything that might exist actually "did" exist, then practically everything we could think of would have to exist. This would include green unicorns, great space goats, etc. After all you don't know for sure that there are no leprechauns or fairies.
 
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Mr. Ben

New member
You've got it exactly backward. What you call a "stopgap invention" is the exclusive accounting for induction, and not only does the Christian worldview have predictive power, it alone can account for predictability. Period. That is to say, atheists must in fact borrow from the Christian worldview for even the simplest predication, let alone predictability and induction.

I see a post in front of me.. I don't duck.. I bump my head. The next day I see the post again.. I bump my head again. On the third day, I make the inference that the post I see in front of me is associated with the pain in my head. I decide to test this hypothesis by ducking. I no longer hurt my head.

So where precisely is the "christian worldview" in this simple description of inference based on experience? Could it not just as easily have a "muslim" worldview, or non-theistic worldview. After all the person sees the post, it hits him in the head, and when he ducks it no-longer hits him. It hardly matters what religion he is.

The truth is that brains evolved to recognize these sorts of causal patterns, and mechanisms that detect them and direct the organism to respond in such a way as to survive more effectively are the results. Logic and reason are names for mechanical systems in the brain which take raw information in, and turn it into activities that increase the probability that the organism will reproduce and pass on the same behaviors.
 
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