Are you a Libertarian?

JudgeRightly

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It is manifestly an open question.

It's not. Life begins at conception.

You missed it:

https://americanrtl.org/beginning-of-biological-life

THE BEGINNING OF BIOLOGICAL DEVELOPMENT

1. SEXUAL HUMAN REPRODUCTION:


The following scientific references are provided by medical ethicist Dr. Prof. Dianne N. Irving of Georgetown University who herself writes herein, "Scientifically, the term 'embryo' as it refers to the sexually reproduced single-cell human embryo should apply from the biological beginning of that human organism, i.e., at the beginning of the process of fertilization or first contact of the sperm with the oocyte (as documented by Carnegie Stage 1)."

So, beginning this list of references with the widely influential Carnegie Stages of Early Human Embryonic Development:

Carnegie Stage 1 Definition: Embryonic life commences with fertilization, and hence the beginning of that process may be taken as the point de depart of stage 1. Despite the small size (ca. 0.1 mm) and weight (ca. 0.004 mg) of the organism at fertilization, the embryo is "schon ein individual-spezifischer Mensch" (Blechschmidt, 1972). ... Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with an oocyte or its investments and ends with the intermingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes at metaphase of the first mitotic division of the zygote (Brackett et al., 1972). Fertilization sensu stricto involves the union of developmentally competent gametes realized in an appropriate environment to result in the formation of a viable embryo (Tesarik, 1986) ... . Fertilization requires probably slightly longer than 24 hours in primates (Brackett et al., 1972). In the case of human oocytes fertilized in vitro, pronuclei were formed within 11 hours of insemination (Edwards, 1972). ... Fertilization, which takes place normally in the ampulla of the uterine tube, includes (a) contact of spermatozoa with the zona pellucida of an oocyte, penetration of one or more spermatozoa through the zona pellucida and the ooplasm, swelling of the spermatozoal head and extrusion of the second polar body, (b) the formation of the male and female pronuclei, and (c) the beginning of the first mitotic division, or cleavage, of the zygote. ... The three phases (a, b, and c) referred to above will be included here under stage 1, the characteristic feature of which is unicellularity. ... [see at cargnegiescience.edu from the Carnegie Stages of Early Human Embryonic Development, Stage 1.] (emphases added)

Human development is a continuous process that begins when an oocyte (ovum) from a female is fertilized by a sperm (or spermatozoon) from a male. (p. 2); ibid.: ... but the embryo begins to develop as soon as the oocyte is fertilized. (p. 2); ibid.: [Single-cell human embryo]: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm ... is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). (p. 2); ibid.: Human development begins at fertilization, the process during which a male gamete or sperm ... unites with a female gamete or oocyte ... to form a single cell [embryo] . This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual. (p. 18) ... The usual site of fertilization is the ampulla of the uterine tube [fallopian tube], its longest and widest part. If the oocyte is not fertilized here, it slowly passes along the tube to the uterus, where it degenerates and is reabsorbed. Although fertilization may occur in other parts of the tube, it does not occur in the uterus. ... The embryo's chromosomes sex is determined at fertilization by the kind of sperm (X or Y) that fertilizes the ovum; hence it is the father rather than the mother whose gamete determines the sex of the embryo. [Keith Moore and T.V.N. Persaud, The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology (6th ed. only) (Philadelphia: W.B. Saunders Company, 1998), p. 37] (emphases added)

Human pregnancy begins with the fusion of an egg and a sperm. (p. 3); ... finally, the fertilized egg, now properly called an embryo, must make its way into the uterus (p. 3); ... The sex of the future embryo is determined by the chromosomal complement of the spermatozoon ... Through the mingling of maternal and paternal chromosomes, the [embryo] is a genetically unique product of chromosomal reassortment ... [Bruce M. Carlson, Human Embryology and Developmental Biology (St. Louis, MO: Mosby, 1994), p. 31; ibid, Carlson 1999, pp., 2, 23, 27, 32] (emphasis added)

In this text, we begin our description of the developing human with the formation and differentiation of the male and female sex cells or gametes, which will unite at fertilization to initiate the embryonic development of a new individual. ... Fertilization takes place in the oviduct [not the uterus]... resulting in the formation of an [embryo] containing a single diploid nucleus. Embryonic development is considered to begin at this point. (p. 1); ... [William J. Larsen, Human Embryology (New York: Churchill Livingstone, 1997), p. 17] (emphases added)

Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed. (p. 5); ibid.: Fertilization is the procession of events that begins when a spermatozoon makes contact with a secondary oocyte or its investments ... (p. 19); ibid.: "The ill-defined and inaccurate term pre-embryo, which includes the embryonic disc, is said either to end with the appearance of the primitive streak or ... to include neurulation. The term is not used in this book. [Ronan O'Rahilly and Fabiola Muller, Human Embryology & Teratology (New York: Wiley-Liss, 1994), p. 55] (emphases added)



I included even pre-conception theories about when life begins

Which are disproven by the above.

only to broaden the context, because even while it is unpopular today, historically there were some people who believed that life began even before conception.

Which makes no difference whatsoever to the FACT that life begins at conception, as shown above.

I believe that abortion is killing,

Do you oppose all abortion? If not, then you are part of the second group that I mentioned, those who want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.

If you do, then why do you question the fact that life begins at conception?

I'm just Catholic in that regard. But what you say here begs the question, just as I would be begging the question to presume that Catholicism is the right theology.

See above.

https://youtu.be/AE0Ih_RRql4

[YT]AE0Ih_RRql4[/YT]
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Do you oppose all abortion? If not, then you are part of the second group that I mentioned, those who want to be able to kill the baby in the womb.
Mothers have a right to self defense.
If you do, then why do you question the fact that life begins at conception?
I never questioned it. I stated the fact that the question is manifestly open. Just because Catholicism and I believe with good reason that at conception there is a human, does not mean that the question is objectively settled.
 

Town Heretic

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The right to self-defence does not overrule the right to life of the baby in her womb.
Let's say a lifeguard has chosen to respond to a cry for help far out in the dangerous surf. She swims out and begins to bring the swimmer back across this great distance. At some point the lifeguard realizes the surf is too strong for her to continue. She can either release the swimmer, who will drown, or she can continue and they will both drown.

Is she a murderer for letting go?
 

Idolater

"Matthew 16:18-19" Dispensationalist (Catholic) χρ
Let's say a lifeguard has chosen to respond to a cry for help far out in the dangerous surf. She swims out and begins to bring the swimmer back across this great distance. At some point the lifeguard realizes the surf is too strong for her to continue. She can either release the swimmer, who will drown, or she can continue and they will both drown.

Is she a murderer for letting go?
Of course not. A killer, sure, but so then are the leos who shoot an attempted murderer dead to defend innocent ppl. Justified.
 

JudgeRightly

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Let's say a lifeguard has chosen to respond to a cry for help far out in the dangerous surf. She swims out and begins to bring the swimmer back across this great distance. At some point the lifeguard realizes the surf is too strong for her to continue. She can either release the swimmer, who will drown, or she can continue and they will both drown.

Is she a murderer for letting go?

You are presenting a false dichotomy. There are more options than what you have mentioned.

Why wouldn't she tell the person she's rescuing to keep swimming, or if they can't swim, use the rescue tube to keep them afloat and have them follow the lifeguard's instructions to assist them in staying afloat until they are rescued?
 

genuineoriginal

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Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives

RESULTS: The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one‐third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.


Isn't it amazing that the excuses do not include rape, incest, and claims that the woman would die if the child were brought to term.
 

Town Heretic

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You are presenting a false dichotomy.
No, it isn't. It's a hypothetical. And in it is a clear choice. This can be mirrored in pregnancy, though it would be a rare event.

There are more options than what you have mentioned.
What would those be?

Why wouldn't she tell the person she's rescuing to keep swimming
The person can't swim. That's why she's there.


, or if they can't swim, use the rescue tube to keep them afloat
You're missing the point by inventing new ideas. Deal with the point. There will be a scenario in which there is no floatation device, just as there will be an example where there is only the mother who can be saved.

And as long as that is true your complaint is mistaken.
 

ok doser

lifeguard at the cement pond

Reasons U.S. Women Have Abortions: Quantitative and Qualitative Perspectives

RESULTS: The reasons most frequently cited were that having a child would interfere with a woman's education, work or ability to care for dependents (74%); that she could not afford a baby now (73%); and that she did not want to be a single mother or was having relationship problems (48%). Nearly four in 10 women said they had completed their childbearing, and almost one‐third were not ready to have a child. Fewer than 1% said their parents' or partners' desire for them to have an abortion was the most important reason. Younger women often reported that they were unprepared for the transition to motherhood, while older women regularly cited their responsibility to dependents.


Isn't it amazing that the excuses do not include rape, incest, and claims that the woman would die if the child were brought to term.

Hmmmm

How about that?
 

Jerry Shugart

Well-known member
Do libertarians approve of abortions being performed because it is inconvenient for the mother to have a baby?

Will someone who considers himself or herself to be a libertarian give us their views on this subject?

Thanks!
 

genuineoriginal

New member
Do libertarians approve of abortions
Most Libertarians are pro-choice, but there are definitely pro-life libertarians as well.


Libertarian perspectives on abortion

Libertarians promote individual liberty and seek to minimize the role of the state. The abortion debate is mainly within right-libertarianism between cultural liberals and cultural conservatives as left-libertarians generally see it as a non-issue as they support legal access to abortion as part of their general support for individual rights, especially in regard to what they consider to be a woman's right to control her body. Libertarian conservatives claim libertarian principles such as the non-aggression principle apply to human beings from conception and that the universal right to life applies to fetuses in the womb. Thus, some of those individuals express opposition to legal abortion.

 

The Barbarian

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My results:

You are 42% Libertarian, which makes you a Soft-core Libertarian.
result icon

Your basic political view is probably more libertarian than anything else, but you nevertheless hold clear reservations about central parts of the libertarian agenda. You understand the libertarian rationales and see where they are coming from, but you still find some of their policy recommendations to be too harsh, too anarchistic, or too extreme for the overall good of society. It is people like you who add a human face (and a bleeding heart) to an ideology that is otherwise perceived as cynical.
 

The Barbarian

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This seems too far right. Probably because of several questions about market vs. government.
 
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