Are there Saints In Heaven? Poll Question

[God's Truth]

The word "God" describes the character of the word, not that the word is a person, as you read into the text.

Furthermore the original verses described the word as an "it", not a him.

also He who was in the world which the world did not know, was the Spirit of the Father, not Jesus.

Jesus did NOT light every man who comes into the world, only the light and spirit of the Father did.

Reading one's particular views into the verses is a problem to people who do it.

LA

Then how does Jesus HIMSELF live in you?

 

[God's Truth]

.
I agree with You. This is true. The Spirit of The Father was fully filled completely within Christ Yahoshuah but He could not send The Comforter unto all of Man or present Him to man.

This is because His Mission, Purpose of Salvation and Purposed plan had not been complete yet. The Lamb / Christ had not Ascended up to Sit upon the RIGHT OF POWER of the Throne.


Jesus Who being in the MORPH of God . Took on the MORPH of a Servant and Died, Rose From The Dead and ascended Up To the RIGHT of Power of The Father.

RESIDING in the Throne of The Father. The Lamb Sits / Resides upon The Right of Power of The Throne In the Center of The Throne Receiving Worship.

Then things begin to happen.


REMEMBER - In (Revelation 5:6). Before taking the scroll from God the Father, the Lamb, Jesus, is seen to be situated in the center of the throne, occupying the same location and position as God, the Father. This would be consistent with Jesus' statements, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30

) and "
Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father" (14:9b). At any time, and at their will, they can coexist together as One.

Then, after projecting outward from the throne, having dissociated Himself from the Father (but still continuing to be God), Jesus, the Lamb, is seen to take the scroll from the Father seated on the throne. In fact, in addition to God the Lamb (Jesus) and God the Father coexisting in the same place and at the same time.

REMEMBER How Jesus Said in Joh 3:13 - And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.

Jesus was on Earth and In Heaven all at the Very Same Time. understand How Jesus Can Be Man and God at The Same Time.

While on earth - Jesus Said he would Send another Comforter / Advocate.

This Is the Light that is given to every man who comes into the world.

The Greek word Comforter here is Greek 3875 παράκλητος / paraklētos / par-ak'-lay-tos - = An intercessor, consoler: - advocate, comforter.

This same word is used as an advocate in 1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an Comforter / Advocate. with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Jesus Christ is the very Comforter / Advocate

Advocate and Comforter are always The same eXact Greek word / paraklētos


Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.
Joh 14:18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

Joh 14:19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

Joh 14:23 ........, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and come unto him, and make dwell with him.

Joh 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

Joh 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Joh 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. …

Joh 14:28 I go away, and come again unto you.

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter / Advocate that he may abide with you for ever;

Jesus is the Father - On The throne of the Father who is Coming Back as the Comforter / Advocate. The Holy Spirit of Light. Filling believers with His Spirit.

Very good.

 

[Rosenritter]

The English Translators did the same thing to the Name of Yashua with Je sus

Also the name of James in the English Translation as well has been perverted.
Greek 2385 Ἰάκωβος Iakōbos / Yacobus / ee-ak'-o-bos

Jacobus, the name of - James, in English. There is no Comparison

'Jesus.' His real name is pronounced Yeshua or Yehoshua, in the Hebrew. .

many faithful believers in Yeshua who have used the name "Jesus" There is no attempt here to make anyone feel guilty of transgression for a mere mistake of pronunciation.

The Origin of the Name Jesus

Let's look at the origin of 'Jesus'. Jesus is derived from Middle English (ca. A.D. 1066) and then is previous derived from Old English and then previous is taken from Late Latin (A.D. 300-700) and then previous is taken from Greek and then is previous taken from Hebrew, 'Yeshua,' 'Yehoshua'.

This is according to The American College Dictionary.

Then in the 4th century, scribes who no longer knew or cared about the Nazarene use of the Name expanded the devices into normal Greek. This then got translated into Late Latin as 'Iesu,' and then into Old English as 'Jesus,'

The end result is a word 'Jesus' which cannot be recognized as 'Ya shua.'

It is just a lack of concern - People are ashamed to use the Real Name of Yashua / Yahoshua. There are various reasons why they are ashamed. Most simply have no scriptures for their faith, while they follow the ideology of the translators, instead of reading the Meaning of the original Manuscripts and keeping the original pronunciation of the people’s Names.

They really don’t like the People and Characters of the Bible. They just like the image the translators have created in their translations.

It's pronounced Jesus in English. In Spanish it's pronounced Hey-Seuss. It's pronounced even differently in Korean. There's no confusion about Who is being referred to, that's just the flavor of the languages.

 

[Rosenritter]

The word God is a transliteration of the Germanic tribal word Gott. Gott being a title that the tribes gave to all their idols and totems. Luther passed this on to Tyndale who transliterated from the German Gott instead of transliterating from the Hebrew to give us Elohim.

English has some Germanic elements. Should we all be speaking Hebrew then?

 

[Truster]

English has some Germanic elements. Should we all be speaking Hebrew then?

You do wherever you want to do and I will obey my calling.

 

[KingdomRose]

Do you believe there are saints in heaven? All of them? Some of them? What about prophets in heaven?


Matthew 27:52-53 KJV -

Yes there are saints in heaven. Jesus said he would resurrect them in "the last day." (John 6:44) We have been in "the last day" for the last hundred years. Not all of them are in heaven yet. Some remain on the earth, as Paul indicated there would be some remaining up to Christ's coming, or, presence (I Thess.4:15).

There are no prophets of old in heaven. Jesus said that NO ONE went to heaven before he came to the earth. (John 3:13) Were you aware of that fact?

Why refer to an ambiguous passage that is more confusing than helpful? If you look at the word-for-word rendering from the Greek in an Interlinear volume, you can see that it could be taken in more than one way. But one thing is clear. Jesus said he would resurrect people "in the last day." So the saints in this passage could not have been brought back to life yet. Verse 52 says that the bodies of the saints were "raised." That simply means that the dead bodies were thrown up out of their graves by the power of the earthquake that occurred when Jesus died.

Verse 53 is a hesitant rendering of the Greek and seems to mean that the saints went into the city, when it actually refers to merely people passing by or through the tombs and going into the city. Check it out in an Interlinear Bible.

 

[KingdomRose]

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints


Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. .... Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God

The "saints" in heaven in those verses are not literal. Just as the wild beast with 7 heads is not literal (chapter 13), nor are the locusts with women's hair and tails of scorpions (chapter 9). What John saw under the altar was a VISION; there were not really saints under an altar. If those "saints" were real, then, as the next few verses state, the sun became black, the moon became like blood, the stars literally fell out of the sky, the sky split apart, and the mountains and islands were moved around. Were those things literal?

Oh, and how about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse in the first few verses of that chapter....were they literal? Did John see actual men on real horses with Hades following behind?

You are pitifully clueless about what the scriptures are telling us.

 

[KingdomRose]

OK.
So where did Moses and Elijah come from when they appeared with Christ? (Matthew 17:3)

They were a VISION, as has been brought out. Jesus said as much. (Matthew 17:9) They weren't really there. If they were, why would Jesus suddenly be alone? Wouldn't Jesus have had Peter actually make tents for them to rest in? Would they just have run away?

Jesus said that NO ONE went to heaven before his death and resurrection and subsequent return to heaven. NO ONE. (John 3:13) He also said that he would resurrect people "in the last day," which is obviously at the end of this system of things. (John 6:44)

 

[God's Truth]

They were a VISION, as has been brought out.

They were spirits.

Jesus said as much. (Matthew 17:9) They weren't really there. If they were, why would Jesus suddenly be alone?

Why would Jesus suddenly be alone? Jesus made real things suddenly appear and disappear.

Wouldn't Jesus have had Peter actually make tents for them to rest in? Would they just have run away?

Jesus said that NO ONE went to heaven before his death and resurrection and subsequent return to heaven. NO ONE. (John 3:13) He also said that he would resurrect people "in the last day," which is obviously at the end of this system of things. (John 6:44)

No one in a flesh body went to heaven. Of course people in their spirit went to heaven.

 

[Rosenritter]

They were spirits.

And your scripture source for this is ... ?

 

[God's Truth]

And your scripture source for this is ... ?

So according to you, when Jesus TRANSFIGURED, he become just a vision?

Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. The scripture plainly says that Jesus transformed BEFORE THEM.

 

[Rosenritter]

So according to you, when Jesus TRANSFIGURED, he become just a vision?

Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. The scripture plainly says that Jesus transformed BEFORE THEM.

Drop the bombastic rhetoric please. In other words, you don't actually have an authority source (i.e. scripture) to establish that the additional figures seen in the vision on the Mount of Transfiguration were spirits.

 

[patrick jane]

The "saints" in heaven in those verses are not literal. Just as the wild beast with 7 heads is not literal (chapter 13), nor are the locusts with women's hair and tails of scorpions (chapter 9). What John saw under the altar was a VISION; there were not really saints under an altar. If those "saints" were real, then, as the next few verses state, the sun became black, the moon became like blood, the stars literally fell out of the sky, the sky split apart, and the mountains and islands were moved around. Were those things literal?

Oh, and how about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse in the first few verses of that chapter....were they literal? Did John see actual men on real horses with Hades following behind?

You are pitifully clueless about what the scriptures are telling us.

Your pitiful JW cult is a travesty

 

[Rosenritter]

http://www.catholic.com/tracts/the-intercession-of-the-saints


Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth. .... Otherwise there would be no remembrance of them at the altar of God

Patrick, were you summarizing the article, or were you offering this as your own interpretation?

 

[patrick jane]

Patrick, were you summarizing the article, or were you offering this as your own interpretation?

That was part of the article, but I think it's true.

 

[glorydaz]

So according to you, when Jesus TRANSFIGURED, he become just a vision?

Denominations that believe in soul sleep, they teach that Peter, James, and John saw merely a “vision” when Elijah and Moses were speaking to Jesus, and that it was not really Elijah and Moses. They treat the word vision as if it means illusion, or mirage. Some Bible translations do not even use the word “vision”, even if all translations used the word “vision,” that would not change the scriptures to say what soul sleep believers are trying to have us believe. The scripture plainly says that Jesus transformed BEFORE THEM.

Maybe Jesus was being deceitful like when he spoke of the rich man and Lazarus in Luke 16.

 

[Patrick Cronin]

The "poll" as to whether there are saints in heaven reveals a significant number of Bible readers who believe that the Bible does not teach that there are saints in heaven. This situation is repeated among Bible-Christians for every item of Christian teaching including the divinity of Christ and the Trinity. A poll cannot PROVE that the majority are correct, which shows that personal interpretation of the Scriptures is not the God-given means of knowing what God has revealed to humanity. It also means that personal interpretation makes it impossible for a Bible Christian preacher to stand with absolute confidence before the people and proclaim it as truth. Christ endowed His church with the fail-safe means by which the apostles and their successors could unerringly preach the truth to unbelievers. "The Holy Spirit whom I will send from the Father,He will guide you into all the truth..." Only the Church possesses that divine protection and authority to ensure the correct understanding of the Scriptures so that the true Gospel can be preached.

 

[glorydaz]

The "saints" in heaven in those verses are not literal. Just as the wild beast with 7 heads is not literal (chapter 13), nor are the locusts with women's hair and tails of scorpions (chapter 9). What John saw under the altar was a VISION; there were not really saints under an altar. If those "saints" were real, then, as the next few verses state, the sun became black, the moon became like blood, the stars literally fell out of the sky, the sky split apart, and the mountains and islands were moved around. Were those things literal?

Oh, and how about the 4 horsemen of the Apocalypse in the first few verses of that chapter....were they literal? Did John see actual men on real horses with Hades following behind?

You are pitifully clueless about what the scriptures are telling us.

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[Rosenritter]

That was part of the article, but I think it's true.

So that would make how many mediators between God and men? And how many high priests that make intercession for us?

1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 8:1-3 KJV
(1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
(2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
(3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

There's additional passages and symbolism here as well. When Jesus instructed us to pray, he told us to pray to our Father in heaven.When Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, signifying that God himself has made the way open to us directly. We no longer need priests to intercede for us, as we have a high priest eternal in the heavens.

Even if we were to assume that the saints were alive and conscious in heaven (which would fight against the very arguments Jesus used to prove the resurrection) the idea of these saints interceding on our behalf or hearing our prayers would also seem to go against the the spirit of these scriptures.

 

[patrick jane]

So that would make how many mediators between God and men? And how many high priests that make intercession for us?

1 Timothy 2:5-6 KJV
(5) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
(6) Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Hebrews 8:1-3 KJV
(1) Now of the things which we have spoken this is the sum: We have such an high priest, who is set on the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens;
(2) A minister of the sanctuary, and of the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, and not man.
(3) For every high priest is ordained to offer gifts and sacrifices: wherefore it is of necessity that this man have somewhat also to offer.

There's additional passages and symbolism here as well. When Jesus instructed us to pray, he told us to pray to our Father in heaven.When Jesus died on the cross, the temple veil was rent from top to bottom, signifying that God himself has made the way open to us directly. We no longer need priests to intercede for us, as we have a high priest eternal in the heavens.

Even if we were to assume that the saints were alive and conscious in heaven (which would fight against the very arguments Jesus used to prove the resurrection) the idea of these saints interceding on our behalf or hearing our prayers would also seem to go against the the spirit of these scriptures.

You make some good points Rosen, you always do. I don't think the saints are "mediators" and they are not high priests

Matthew 27:52 KJV - obviously, some saints rose from the grave.