RobE said:
It is in accordance with the definitions of the terms "settled" and "free(dom)"
The two are mutually exclusive, by definition, which I made clear in the post.
What's your definition of freedom?
The technical definition is...
"Necessarily, for any human agent S, action A and time t, if S performs A freely at t, then the history of the world prior to t, the laws of nature, and the actions of any other agent (including God) prior to and at t are jointly compatible with S's refraining from performing A freely."
Thomas P. Flint, "Two Accounts of Providence," in Divine and Human Action, ed. T. V. Morris [Ithaca, N.Y. Cornel University Press, 1988], p. 175
The not so technical but equally valid definition is...
The ability to do or to do otherwise.
Casual determinism allows for you to choose.
But not freely! Choice, in the context of causality, is basically meaningless because your "choice" is nothing but simply the next effect/cause in the causal chain. One cause or group of causes has the effect of your action, which you are calling a choice but it really isn't one because there was no real alternative action that was compatible with the given set of particular circumstances (see the more technical definition).
Christianity=Morality. If Christianity is meaningless then all of Christianity is meaningless.
WHAT? This is your proof?
You do have to at least try to stay on the same page that I am on and stop reacting to single phrases or sentences outside of the context in which they were writen. The statement was that if morality is meaningless so is Christianity and in that context it is clear what is meant by saying that Christianity=morality.
And Christianity does equal morality and vise versa! Any moral code other than the Christian moral code is no moral code at all! All codes of conduct outside of that which is in agreement with Christianity is, BY DEFINITION, immoral.
Christianity is all about morality, as you are well aware. How much mileage did you really expect to get from calling this phrase into question anyway? Do you disagree that the God of the Christian faith is the very standard by which all things moral is based and defined? What exactly was your hope in calling this into question? I really do want to know because this makes me wonder whether you spent more than 30 seconds thinking this through. If you don't want to take this discussion seriously then just drop it and stop wasting my time.
Yes logic. The logic I've presented is, as far as I can see, iron clad and inescapable. If God knows the future then I am going to do what He knows I'm going to do whether I want to or not. In fact, I will want to do what He knows I will want to do and there's nothing that I could or would do about it regardless of what else ever happens. That makes everything the Christian faith is about entirely meaningless. It makes repentance meaningless, it makes love meaningless, it makes justice meaningless, everything is totally and completely meaningless.
I finally realized the problem here.
No you don't.
You think that just because you have a 'free' choice that you determine your own outcomes.
That's the meaning of free will. If it isn't me doing the determining of my actions then it isn't me that is responsible for those actions and therefore saying that I love someone doesn't mean anything because I couldn't have not loved them because something outside of my control caused me to do as I did or kept me from doing otherwise.
So you can decide A and B will happen. It's all you. God being your loving Father allows you to do A and let B happen so you'll be free. So you're free to do whatever you want because if you can't then you're not really free.
There are lots of things that I cannot do but the point is that I am not responsible for that which is outside of my control. It is not necessary, nor have I ever maintained that one be able to do absolutely anything they want to do but rather that I simply have a genuine choice and the ability to avoid wrong doing. (1 Corinthians 10:13)
So you can save yourself or condemn yourself without Him?
I never said any such thing. Although it is our sin which condemns us and we are not compelled to place our faith in Christ.
God can't see your heart so He can't really tell what you will do next? It's all up to you.
God can predict and do so with a very high degree of certainty but that is not the same as knowing for certain. (Gen. 22:12)
What do you think will happen if it's truly all up to you and your 'freedom'?
This question is nonsense! What do you mean by "if it's truly all up to me and my freedom"? If what's all up to me? Do you think I'm suggesting that I'm the one who came up with the plan of salvation; that I went to God and told Him how He was going to save people and under what circumstances people would be qualified to receive His grace? Is that what you think? If so, you're delusional.
I thank God I'm not on my own. What happens in your heart is yours.
Not if you don't have a free will it isn't yours. It's the property of someone or something else which either predestined or otherwise caused your every thought, feeling and deed.
What happens in His creation is His. Open Theism makes you the creator instead of the creation.
How so? This is stupid. You've lost all control over your emotions Rob. You need to settle down and get a grip. Open Theism simply acknowledges that we are truly responsible for our actions because they are genuinely our actions in that we really did choose to do them ourselves.
Your freewill ends with you. At judgment will He judge your heart or how you enjoyed your freedom?
There is no difference. Without freedom the condition of my heart (which is a matter of morality) is meaningless.
Christianity is about curbing your free will and aligning yourself with Him. It's about turning over to Him exactly the gift He gave you.
Must one choose to curb that free will and align oneself with Him? Do you see how you've begged the question here Rob?
Curbing and aligning are verbs; they imply choices that are made. How are those choices made except by the will? And if that will is not free then how is there any meaning to your having curbed and aligned it with God? There isn't! That's the whole point!
Choices? Freedom? Freedom of Choice?
To do what?
To do good or to do otherwise. That's what.
YOUR LOGICAL FLAW: You make choices and He determines outcomes. Did you forget?
Proverbs 16:9 A man’s heart plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.
If you are going to quote Scripture you might do God the favor of doing so accurately, assuming of course that you have the choice.
This verse is not teaching that men cannot do other than what the Lord's desires is for them to do. If it did, the Bible would be self-contradictory, first of all (Luke 7:30), and secondly God would be unjust to punish any such evil "steps" which He himself directed in such a way as to make it impossible to avoid.
By the way, you don't have a great deal of history with me and so I'll take the opportunity to just tell you that I am not afraid of what the Bible says. There is no verse that you are going to come up with that is going to trip me up or cause me the slightest bit of problem or that will hardly count as a problem text for that matter. If you want to take this philosophical (i.e. logical) conversation to the next level and turn it into a purely Biblical one, I invite you to do so.
Is this what I've been missing?
As of right now, I can't even tell if you understand the form of the argument. I sincerely hope that this post has helped in that regard.
Resting in Him,
Clete