The issue is does the Bible reveal God as timeless and foreknowing of all future events without having to be the cause of all of them. Along with that I have decided to include does the Bible reveal God to be present in all events as well. So I thought it would be good to start with the Book of Genesis and look at certain texts throught the open view (OV), the closed view (CV), and the closed view/free will (CVF) and compare the them to see which view the text supports. Its seems most of us understand and agree on the differences between the three views.
1. The Creation account shows time in God; He existed before he created the world, He performs a sequence of events, the creation is finished and is in God's past.
2. Every event up to the flood looks clearly OV to me.
3. God is "grieved", "repentant", and "angry", and then wipes out his creation and all mankind except Noah and family. And according to CV this ia all predetermined and according to CVF this is all known before the world was created just not predetermined. I go with not predetermined nor foreknown as the only way to look at these passages without reading anything into them.
I do this too, but clearly our logic and meaning are opposed.
Posted by Lonster
You can't take an apple out and say 'this is not a pear.' I mean you can, but it doesn't prove that there are no pears. Here is a verse that you believe teaches limited foreknowledge, but it is suggestive, not theological. It is deductive, not inductive.
These verses are "instructive" not "suggestive" concerning God's nature and character. Scripture forms OV theology, and if these scriptures do not form your theology, what pray tell, does?
Sorry, training in exegesis probably here. We take straight doctrine from doctrinal passage. In Historical passages we find treatise in doctrine, but they are written more to teach a truth in historical context. I agree we get doctrine from such, like an example or case study, but we have to be more careful to check and recheck our work.
Posted by Lonster
I know of no theological position that would suggest God isn't emotionally involved with His people, and grief is what we see here. In fact, even when we see repent, or relent, it is most often translated from this same word for grief. This doesn't deny exhaustive foreknowledge, nor simple foreknowledge. Have you ever watched a movie over again? I have, my wife has. She still cries at exactly the same spots. Interesting. The mere fact that we watch things over again after we've already seen them gives us a basal understanding of how God could be emotionally involved in our plight. So I'm seeing more of a discussion concerning God's relational ability in this text, which is indeed a point of discussion between us, but I'm not catching your drift concerning foreknowledge.
That's funny, I see God's nature and character, and not merely his "relational ability". And as far as the destruction of the world, in the CV and CVF, God watches it over, and over, and over.....in the OV God saw it only once. I hope you will eventually "catch my drift", I'll slow down and go over this again if you need me to.
Dave, you are you and not other OVer's here, but please indulge the linguistics. All I have to work with is what I have been given, and I try to state what I have been given without bias, but I'm not OV. The very thing you said 'funny' about is almost verbatim what I've been told in here.
Posted by Lonster
Going along the same train of thought: Did God literally remember here?
Gen 8:1 And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle which were with him in the ark.
To remember simply means to direct ones thoughts back on something else. Here the Bible reveals to us the way God thinks, if this is not the case then where do we go to find out how he really thinks? Can you tell me?
"to have (something) come into the mind again" Otherwise it is just bringing a thought to forefront. There is a difference. Even you agree that God knows all. My point is that we understand this figuratively, God doesn't forget but our sins through Christ, and even that we must examine for understanding.
Posted by Lonster
If not what do we make of it? Do we understand this the same way God tells Abraham "Now I know your heart...?"
Yep, God tested Abraham so he could find something out that he didn't foreknow foresure, if this is not the case then please tell me why he tested him?
So why couldn't this be the same? I'd hope you would appreciate a sense of our position here. We see that tests are for us. They reveal what we are made of, what we know, what we believe and live according to. If God knows our thoughts before we speak it, and He know our hearts (and He does) , this is a mute point.
Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her Seed; He will bruise your head, and you shall bruise His heel.
This is a prophecy concerning Christ future, certainly He causes this, but your question is from an OV perspective. Does anything happen without His involvement? Some would say your question was too narrowly confining and that we'd not be able to find anything that "that He, Himself, simply did not cause."
Well, if they concluded that, then, they would not have correctly read what I have said. Which is the way they read their Bible, if you catch my drift.
Yes, I think I do.
On to Tower of Babel and Abraham tomorrow.
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