ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[Clete]

I'm saying that exhaustive foreknowledge is a special case. Non-exhaustive foreknowledge does not cause events. However, exhaustive foreknowledge must include the first cause, and thus coupled with exhaustive foreknowledge the first cause becomes all causes.

Well its an interesting idea but you would have to show me the syllogism.

How would causality necessarily follow from exhaustive forknowledge?

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[elected4ever]

Well its an interesting idea but you would have to show me the syllogism.

How would causality necessarily follow from exhaustive forknowledge?

Resting in Him,
Clete

You tell me. You are the one that opposes and rejects God's foreknowledge to make Him less than the God that He is and a God fashioned after your own thoughts and reason.

 

[godrulz]

Open Theists believe in foreknowledge, just not determinism or exhaustive definite foreknowledge. I would also suggest that not all foreknowledge would be causal. God can know certain things (even as the insurance industry or weathermen) without causing them based on perfect past and present knowledge.

 

[elected4ever]

Open Theists believe in foreknowledge, just not determinism or exhaustive definite foreknowledge. I would also suggest that not all foreknowledge would be causal. God can know certain things (even as the insurance industry or weathermen) without causing them based on perfect past and present knowledge.

To you foreknowledge is determinative. Just look at your own conclusions and the double speak you use.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Open/ free will sounds incoherent.

Explain "There is time in God."

You then say God is in an eternity of unlimited time and space. Explain how this last comment does not contradict your first comment.

You first have to explain how what I have said is incoherent or how I have contradicted myself. I can cope with someone who is stubborn but not someone who is stupid. Either you can't see the coherence or you don't want to. I can't blame anyone for being reluctant to accept OV, it's not the orthodoxy of today.

Concerning time in God and space answer these questions;

Does God do everything all at once? Yes or no?

Is he creating the world, flooding it with water, and judging it with fire all at the same time? Yes or no?

Did God exist before he created the world? Yes or no?

Is the world in God or separate and distinct from him? Yes or no?

What existed outside of God before he created anything else?

How would you define space?

 

[DFT_Dave]

Excellent summary post of comparison and contrast. Thank you.

Several from OV persuassion have said that God willingly chooses to not know future contingency, but that He is capable of such if and when He desires.

I took this to mean, when it was expressed, that God does know certain future events, as an act of determinism in what He ordains in the future.

What did I miss on my initial statement? I'm still perplexed you said 'no.' I'm not finding the disagreement.

Thanks again.

In Him

Lon

I cannot and will not answer this, I did not make the comments. You will have to ask the one who made them to explain it. I will procede with a case by case explanation of OV.

 

[godrulz]

To you foreknowledge is determinative. Just look at your own conclusions and the double speak you use.

Exhaustive foreknowledge is determinitive. It logically removes contingencies/freedom.

Simple foreknowledge of some things as highly probable does not have to be determinitive (my wife knows I will eat today without causing me to eat).

 

[godrulz]

Dave: How is New York?

What are your thoughts on space and God's omnipresence? I grasp our understanding of omniscience and time, but I do not find space and omnipresence as intuitive.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Exhaustive foreknowledge is determinitive. It logically removes contingencies/freedom.

Simple foreknowledge of some things as highly probable does not have to be determinitive (my wife knows I will eat today without causing me to eat).

If your wife knows exactly what you will eat, the number of grams consumed,
and the exact time you will eat, does it take away your freedom?

I have looked at the syllogism, but I still don't comprehend how "exhaustive foreknowledge" removes freedom.

 

[DFT_Dave]

Dave: How is New York?

What are your thoughts on space and God's omnipresence? I grasp our understanding of omniscience and time, but I do not find space and omnipresence as intuitive.

Einstein "If we assume that all matter would disappear from the world, then before relativity, one believed that space and time would continue existing in an empty world. But according to the theory of relativity, if matter and its motion disappeared, there would no longer be any space or time."

There is a relationship between time and space for the world and God.

The question is, is God everywhere? The answer is yes in the closed view and no in the open view. In the closed view, God and everything else is eternal, this view, without a full explanation, is simply another form of pantheism, (I will explain more later if this is not clear enough) God is everything and everywhere at all times. In the open view God is not everything and not in everything and therefore not everywhere. God is not present in those things he has created, the things he has created are in his presence. In OV God is not in the tree, in all forms of Pantheism God is in the tree.

"my wife knows I will eat today without causing me to eat."

Your wife knows you will eat without having to be present where you are, neither does God.

I hope no one else sees this post.

 

[elected4ever]

Exhaustive foreknowledge is determinitive. It logically removes contingencies/freedom.

Exhaustive foreknowledge is a distinction without a difference. Ether god knows or He doesn't know. The term is just an excuse to explain away foreknowledge so you can ignore the truth and make your flesh responsible for your own supposed self righteousness. How dare God know my every thought and action. What a violation of my privacy. How dare god know the thoughts and intents of my heart. To you it is unjust and to me it is the wisdom of God. To you it is a threat and to me it is comfort and assurance. It just proves that God is a threat to you and your beliefs about Him.

 

[Philetus]

You tell me. You are the one that opposes and rejects God's foreknowledge to make Him less than the God that He is and a God fashioned after your own thoughts and reason.

You are out to lunch on this one, E. You can state the OV position, but you can't make the kind of accusation against OV that you just did.

God doesn't know the future because it doesn't exist yet. God knows the future will ultimately be according to his over all intentions because God has designed the world with both creative freedom and limitations AND God is continually involved in bringing all creation to His intended telos for creation.

Prophecy is warnings and promises. In that God unconditionally promises to do something in the future, (the second coming for instance) you can bet it will happen. God is faithful to His word and completely able to do anything God chooses to do. God is not only faithful to His word, He is faithful to His creation as well. What God plans is good for creation and consistent with what He has made and the future He intends. For now, we 'experience' the future only in HOPE and HOPE does not disappoint us because God is faithful. Our FAITH in God, not a future that is already known by God as actual, is the foundation of our HOPE.

Isn't the God who reveals Himself in scripture and creation big enough for you? Why do you feel the need to exaggerate the scriptural attributes of God?

​

 

[DFT_Dave]

Exhaustive foreknowledge is a distinction without a difference. Ether god knows or He doesn't know. The term is just an excuse to explain away foreknowledge so you can ignore the truth and make your flesh responsible for your own supposed self righteousness. How dare God know my every thought and action. What a violation of my privacy. How dare god know the thoughts and intents of my heart. To you it is unjust and to me it is the wisdom of God. To you it is a threat and to me it is comfort and assurance. It just proves that God is a threat to you and your beliefs about Him.

If I accept your view can you explain to me the relationship between God's knowledge and God's will. Does God see the future or has God ordained it or both?

 

[DFT_Dave]

You are out to lunch on this one, E. You can state the OV position, but you can't make the kind of accusation against OV that you just did.

God doesn't know the future because it doesn't exist yet. God knows the future will ultimately be according to his over all intentions because God has designed the world with both creative freedom and limitations AND God is continually involved in bringing all creation to His intended telos for creation.

Prophecy is warnings and promises. In that God unconditionally promises to do something in the future, (the second coming for instance) you can bet it will happen. God is faithful to His word and completely able to do anything God chooses to do. God is not only faithful to His word, He is faithful to His creation as well. What God plans is good for creation and consistent with what He has made and the future He intends. For now, we 'experience' the future only in HOPE and HOPE does not disappoint us because God is faithful. Our FAITH in God, not a future that is already known by God as actual, is the foundation of our HOPE.

Isn't the God who reveals Himself in scripture and creation big enough for you? Why do you feel the need to exaggerate the scriptural attributes of God?

​

Excellent :thumb:

 

[elected4ever]

You are out to lunch on this one, E. You can state the OV position, but you can't make the kind of accusation against OV that you just did.

God doesn't know the future because it doesn't exist yet. God knows the future will ultimately be according to his over all intentions because God has designed the world with both creative freedom and limitations AND God is continually involved in bringing all creation to His intended telos for creation.

Prophecy is warnings and promises. In that God unconditionally promises to do something in the future, (the second coming for instance) you can bet it will happen. God is faithful to His word and completely able to do anything God chooses to do. God is not only faithful to His word, He is faithful to His creation as well. What God plans is good for creation and consistent with what He has made and the future He intends. For now, we 'experience' the future only in HOPE and HOPE does not disappoint us because God is faithful. Our FAITH in God, not a future that is already known by God as actual, is the foundation of our HOPE.

Isn't the God who reveals Himself in scripture and creation big enough for you? Why do you feel the need to exaggerate the scriptural attributes of God?

​

I told you that God's foreknowledge is a threat to your brand of OV theology. I am Open View and you are ?????????. Will, whatever god is according to your imagination.

 

[Philetus]

Exhaustive foreknowledge is a distinction without a difference. Ether god knows or He doesn't know. The term is just an excuse to explain away foreknowledge so you can ignore the truth and make your flesh responsible for your own supposed self righteousness. How dare God know my every thought and action. What a violation of my privacy. How dare god know the thoughts and intents of my heart. To you it is unjust and to me it is the wisdom of God. To you it is a threat and to me it is comfort and assurance. It just proves that God is a threat to you and your beliefs about Him.

There you go again!

Of course God knows your every though and action. What God doesn't (and is as unlikely to understand as the rest of us) is your next thought; the one you haven't thought yet (and are unlikely to think through before posting). Does knowing that in advance make me god, or God small for not knowing it? I don't think so to either.

​

 

[Philetus]

I told you that God's foreknowledge is a threat to your brand of OV theology. I am Open View and you are ?????????. Will, whatever god is according to your imagination.

:vomit:

See?​

Both post were made at 12:42 pm.

 

[elected4ever]

If I accept your view can you explain to me the relationship between God's knowledge and God's will. Does God see the future or has God ordained it or both?

That depends on if you can view God's foreknowledge as not being causal. That is the same mistake that the Calvinist make.

When the Calvinist say that God's foreknowledge is causal then he believes that God is the author of sin. We both know that this is not true.

In your particular brand of the Open View and your acceptance of the foreknowledge is causal you say that God must not know everything giving God a way of escape in your own mind. You then assign to God the finiteness of man. A creation of your own imagination that is acceptable to you. You cannot accept a God that caused sin So this is a better alternative to you.

 

[elected4ever]

:vomit:

See?​

Both post were made at 12:42 pm.

Even a clock is right twice a day.

 

[Philetus]

That depends on if you can view God's foreknowledge as not being causal. That is the same mistake that the Calvinist make.

When the Calvinist say that God's foreknowledge is causal then he believes that God is the author of sin. We both know that this is not true.

In your particular brand of the Open View and your acceptance of the foreknowledge is causal you say that God must not know everything giving God a way of escape in your own mind. You then assign to God the finiteness of man. A creation of your own imagination that is acceptable to you. You cannot accept a God that caused sin So this is a better alternative to you.

How in the world can you claim to be an Open Theist, E?:doh:
God does not need to escape a future that does not exist. Don't create (imagine) one for Him and then try to 'squeeze' Him into it! ALL that God has planned for him hasn't entered the heart or mind of man. Your imagined future is excessively small for God!​