Because I hate you.
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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Because I hate you.
In the sense we hate our family in comparison to our love for Jesus??
Or, do you simply hate his guts for his views?
You're wrong baloney. Gravity is a physical property of mass. It is real, it isn't just an idea like "time" or "quality" or "coolness" or any number of other abstractions that we use in common language all the time.
It's still called a theory for a reason baloney. Did you read any of the thread I linked too? It is a solid logical proof that the effects of "time dilation" has to do with clocks, not time itself, which only makes sense since time is not a thing but rather an idea.
I never said otherwise - moron.
Mathematics is another one of things that are concepts and not real ontological things.
Please read that book I recommended! You're driving me crazy with this silliness.
No such "pure" view has been suggested nor would it be possible. All we want to do is remove the Greek influences that are pagan and irrational in nature.
If you don't stop this insane line of reasoning I'm going to conclude that your problem isn't a lack of thinking skills but rather a lack of thinking ability. No one has suggested that we are eliminated Greek influence for the sake of removing Greek influence.
The open view simply seeks to get back to a truly rational and purely Biblical perspective. To whatever degree Greek thought influenced the writers of the Bible (i.e. the actual authors of the Bible not of commentaries) then at least to that extent Greek thought was correct. The bottom line is that if the ideas didn't make it into the Bible then those ideas are not to be used to formulate doctrine. That is the position of every Open Theist you will ever find. Any argument that goes beyond this is an argument against a straw man of your own construction.
Resting in Him,
Clete
patman
Active member
How? So what if some hebrews thought of the future as you say they did (which they didn't)? Should their influence cause us to ignore what the Bible says?
Jesus even told us that the end days would be cut shorter than planned, so who's plan is changing? It is God's plan, isn't it? How can the future is closed if God is changing his plans he has written?
Is he only pretending to change his plans, Lon?
(Notice how many points can be made with questions[because the answers are so obvious])
prespilot68
New member
Baloney - I am new to TOL, but I'll jump into the fray here regarding your comments. First all of the apostles and disciples were JEWS!!! Not GREEK!! Indeed they spoke in Greek and lived in a culture influenced by the greeks, but to the Jews these people were a "plague" in the sense they stood in direct contrast to their religion. Paul, Mathew, Mark, Luke and John were 100% HEBREW!! Interesting when you study Judaism (which is the foundation of Christianity) no where do you find the God of Calvinism or a God that is trapped in the "Eternal Now" or is outside of duration. So to say that Paul was influenced by the Greeks is all wet - remember he was a highly trained pharisee and very well learned Jew.
Clete, gravity is an abstraction. Your isolating a property in our minds.
It is a relationship that is dependant on our minds to make so it is therefore subjective.
But before you and Dave babble on about concepts like time/gravity, actuality and potentiality, which you obviously don't have clue about, how does all this relate to the New Testament?
The New Testament was written in the Greek and heavily influenced by Greek thinking. You're not going to avoid that conclusion which open theism is set out to do!
It is a relationship that is dependant on our minds to make so it is therefore subjective.
But before you and Dave babble on about concepts like time/gravity, actuality and potentiality, which you obviously don't have clue about, how does all this relate to the New Testament?
The New Testament was written in the Greek and heavily influenced by Greek thinking. You're not going to avoid that conclusion which open theism is set out to do!
He is a she, who doesn't know God from her butt crack. She is an enemy to the gospel of grace and therefore an enemy of mine. The only reason she is even here is to harass me. I hate her is the purest sense of the word.
Psalm 5:5 The boastful shall not stand in Your sight;You hate all workers of iniquity.
Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
Psalm 139:21 Do I not hate them, O LORD, who hate You?And do I not loathe those who rise up against You?
Resting in Him,
Clete
You are an idiot after all. If all that existed in the universe was mass and energy and there wasn't a single thinking mind to figure out anything having to do with the properties of mass and the laws of gravity, mass would still be attracted by gravity to other bodies of mass just as they are today. Gravity is a physical property of mass, like temperature and density and whether we paid any attention to it or not, it would remain exactly that, a property of mass. The planets ran in their orbits long before anyone came up with the term Gravity to describe the property which causes them to do so.
You brought it up, not me!
It relates to open theism because certain people who disagree with it suggest that God exists outside of time. Time cannot be existed outside of because it isn't a place or location it is an idea. Further, to exist implies duration. If you have no duration then you haven't existed and don't exist. Thus the idea of existence outside of time implies an inherent contradiction and therefore must be false.
That is not what Open Theism has set out to do baloney! How many times do you need for an open theist to tell you that before you believe it? Who was the idiot who told you that anyway?
Resting in Him,
Clete
prespilot68
New member
Indeed your correct, but these men were all taught by Jesus - a Jew! Not a Greek!
Quite right but even if that weren't the case, boloney's point would be a moot one. The Scripture is our authority not Greek philosophy. There may be several areas where the two overlap and that's fine but whether they overlap a lot or a little is completely irrelivent to the point that it is the Scripture that is our authority no matter how many broken Greek clocks read correctly twice a day.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Nang
TOL Subscriber
You need me.
You need to be told to repent of your hateful heart and your false teaching.
You need to be told to believe and love God with all your heart, soul, and mind and regard others as yourself.
You need to believe in the omniscient, omnipotent, immutable God of grace, and trust in the righteousness of Jesus Christ, rather than depend on this fake persona you put up as a front to others.
Nang
Clete, actually it takes the human mind to participate with objective reality for true knowledge to occur. The universe would exist at least from the realist's perspective but it would be big blob of whatever. It wouldn't be the cosmos a well ordered thing.
Other perspectives wouldn't believe it would exist at all. The old philosophical problem of a tree falling in an empty forest.
Would time or a succession of events still occur? hmm..
Have you heard of space-time continuum? Does it exist outside the mind? hmm..
Other perspectives wouldn't believe it would exist at all. The old philosophical problem of a tree falling in an empty forest.
Would time or a succession of events still occur? hmm..
Have you heard of space-time continuum? Does it exist outside the mind? hmm..
Clete's words in post #6199;
" the reformers broke with Rome not the Greece(Aristotle).
Open theism seeks to finish the job and get back to a Biblical understanding of God..
Clete's later comment;
"Who was the idiot who told you this"
You told me Clete, that's why open theism is flawed. You are using ideas of time that are Greek and even iof you read about time in New Testament it is in the Greek and it's Greek view of time. That is God is transcendant of it.
" the reformers broke with Rome not the Greece(Aristotle).
Open theism seeks to finish the job and get back to a Biblical understanding of God..
Clete's later comment;
"Who was the idiot who told you this"
You told me Clete, that's why open theism is flawed. You are using ideas of time that are Greek and even iof you read about time in New Testament it is in the Greek and it's Greek view of time. That is God is transcendant of it.
Time IS the succession (i.e. duration) of events! Don't you get it?
We are either talking past one another you are stupid or you are just being recalcitrant because you think its fun to waste everyone's time.
When we use words, we mean something. When we use the word gravity, we are referring to that real physical phenomena that has a specific and quantifiable relationship with MASS. That relationship existed before anyone called it gravity and thus the phenomena is not merely a concept, it is real and stands apart from the thinking mind.
Time is similar in that when we use the term we are referring to something but it is dissimilar in that the thing we are referring to is merely an idea not an actual thing. The succession of events is not an actual thing, it is a concept relating to the events themselves with are real. The concepts of before and after are only that, concepts. There is no substance that we can point to and say, "There sits a beaker of the past." or "I hold in my hand four pounds of the future", or "The boiling point of yesterday is 134 degrees Kelvin.". All such concepts refer to abstractions not actual substantive objective entities. One can exist outside of the gravitational field of a particular object but one cannot exist outside of duration.
OH PLEASE GOD! Please tell me that you understand the difference between a concept and an actual thing that a concept might refer too. PLEASE tell me that you aren't a complete blithering idiot!
I've heard of it, yes. I actually majored in Physics for a while in college. And while I do not have a degree, I am quite familiar with the THEORY of Relativity (both of them).
Did you or did you not read any of the thread I linked to the other day? Einstein's theories are not so cut and dried as you seem to assume and as they are not directly relevant to Open Theism I will not debate the issue here. I will be happy to debate you on the subject in the thread I linked too if and only if, you can convince me that you have read and understood the opening post of that thread.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Lon
Well-known member
Sin entering the scene changes the scene. The days are cut short in grace. We were created to last forever.
It isn't an easy subject, but our logic hits a ceiling that does exist. My contention is that many do not recognize the ceiling for the paint. There is sheetrock above that, then insulation, and then a roof if not another floor. I see this very well in my perception. Of course there is open sky and then space afterwards, but we do have a real ceiling to our ability to grasp. We are told very firmly in 1 Corinthians 13 that the 'best' of our apprehension of God is 'obscure.'
You really should learn how to think clearly. This is just embarrassing for you (or it should be).
When I said that the Reformation broke with Rome, do you suppose I meant that the reformers broke with all things Roman or did you understand that I was referring to the Catholic church when I used the word "Rome"?
I assume that you knew I was referring to the Catholic church and so I have another question. Did you suppose that I meant that the reformers broke with all things Catholic or just those things which the reformers found to be unbiblical or irrational?
The reformers didn't drop the idea that Jesus is God, which the Catholics taught. They didn't drop the idea that Jesus rose from the dead or that Jesus ascended into heaven and would one day return or that or that Peter, James and John were apostles or that the book of Romans was written by the apostle Paul or that God created the universe in 6 days, or any number of a thousand other doctrines which are clearly and undeniably Biblical all of which that Catholics believed in Luther's day and do to this day.
The same is true with Open Theisms rejection of PAGAN Greek Philosophy! We are not seeking to throw out the truth but error. We are not seeking to be racists in our rejection of the Classics but simply true to the fact that the Bible itself is the only authority for faith and practice in the Christian faith.
How many times do you want me to repeat this same point? Do you intend to just go on presenting the same tired argument no matter how many time its refuted? Is that you're tactic? Just repeat youself until your opposition gives up in frustration so that you can go on glibly living your life as though you've accomplished something?
What is you motivation for ignoring one argument after another? Why not respond to what Open Theism is really doing instead of just making stuff up? If Open Theism is so easily defeated then defeat what it really teaches and stop with this idiotic nonsense.
Resting in Him,
Clete
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