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Turbo said:Where's the other dog?
:doh:
Turbo said:Where's the other dog?
Clete said:Ha! And the trap closes shut on CiK's neck!
Would you like to dare debate me on the context and meaning of Romans chapter 9? It is the most powerful argument in the Bible AGAINST Calvinism. Come on, I dare you.
:chuckle:
It works every time!
Resting in Him,
Clete
Yeah, that's about what I expected.ChristisKing said:Are you kidding me? You can't even address a single verse, how in the world are you gonna handle an entire chapter. :yawn:
Clete said:Yeah, that's about what I expected.
See ya! :wave2:
For good this time.
Resting in Him,
Clete
Which ones, may I ask? That say this explicitly, I mean.godrulz said:Other verses say His will is resisted.
Perhaps "other verses" means you had specific verses in reply in mind, though? Why is that not proof-texting?Context is king. Quit proof texting your preconceived ideas.
I'm not sure what you mean here, though. Clearly the answer to Paul's question is "no one!" not even one individual, for "who" is singular.'before vs from'?
potential vs actual
godrulz said:Lk. 7:30 (rejected God's purposes for them)
godrulz said:Lk. 13:34 ('not willing')
godrulz said:Acts 17 Not everyone received the grace of God in the Gospel. Hell is a testament to man's ability to resist God's will for us (2 Peter 3:9).
godrulz said:Satan and evil men are in opposition to God's will and purposes. This is why He sends judgment and wars against His enemies.
godrulz said:The Gospels reveal a warfare model, not a blueprint model (everything is God's will). Your theodicy (problem of evil) is lacking in truth and clarity.
godrulz said:There is a judicial blinding when men harden their own hearts.
godrulz said:Double predestination was considered a horrific doctrine by Calvin. He believed it despite it contradicting God's self-revelation of love, justice, and holiness.
godrulz said:It is apparent that you interpret verses through the filter of Calvinism. You also link unrelated contexts to support deductive reasoning.
godrulz said:Realistically, we would have to carefully exegete all the relevant verses in context. This would take more than a brief post. We have attempted this on other threads.Apparently, we find each other's assumptions weak and unconvincing. I understand where you are coming from, but do not believe it is consistent will all the biblical evidence.
godrulz said:Transferring the responsibility for heinous evil from Satan and man to God ends the credibility of Calvinism. Hyper-sovereignty is not the only 'truth' in Scripture. Love and holiness are talked about much more than a misconception of sovereignty.
godrulz said:BTW, there is a difference between moral evil (contrary to God's holiness and love) and KJV 'evil' referring to natural evil sent in judgment. Sloppy exegesis, bro.
Isa. 14:24, 27godrulz said:God is unchanging, yet changes His mind.
godrulz said:We cannot pit verses against each other to create a contradiction. Open Theism allows us to take both sets of verses literally, rather than explaining them away figuratively (e.g. some of the future is predestined/settled, but some of the future is open and contingent; God is unchanging, yet changes His mind).
Mr. Coffee said:Isa. 14:24, 27
The LORD of Hosts has sworn:
As I have planned, so it will be;
as I have purposed it, so it will happen.
The LORD of Hosts Himself has planned it;
therefore, who can stand in its way?
It is His hand that is outstretched,
so who can turn it back?
This isn't just an isolated historical event (the king of Assyria), because the text assumes that an unchanging sovereign will is an attribute of God.
:BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO:ChristisKing said:This is at the heart of your error. You think that there are verses that actually contradict each other that are reconciled once you believe the "new" heresy Open Theism. It is not true, God is absolutely Sovereign and Omniscient and there are no verses that contradict these revealed attributes, you just think there are.
The Lord never changes His mind:
1SA 15:29 "Also the Glory of Israel will not lie or change His mind; for He is not a man that He should change His mind."
Yet there is a verse:
EXO 32:14 And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
The Lord had already predestined that Israel would be enslaved in Eygpt for 400 years and would return to their land and repossess it. He revealed this predestined truth to Abraham and was certainly going to complete it, as indeed He did!
GEN 15:13 God said to Abram, "Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.
GEN 15:14 "But I will also judge the nation whom they will serve, and afterward they will come out with many possessions.
GEN 15:16 "Then in the fourth generation they will return here, for the iniquity of the Amorite is not yet complete."
God was not changing His original predestined purpose, that He revealed to Abraham and later fulfilled, but rather was just revealing the power of intercessory prayer and the coming Christ that Moses was a type of who would also interceed for His/his people.
His will is not an uncontrollable urge. He does what he wants to do.godrulz said:If His sovereign will is unchanging, then God is less free than we are.
"It is His hand that is outstretched, so who can turn it back?" That's a general statement about God.It is in a specific context and cannot be extrapolated from the specific to the general (logical fallacy).
James 4:13-16The key is to find out what God has predestined and purposed (e.g. the Messiah would die as the Lamb of God, rise from the dead, and return to reign) while recognizing what He has not settled about the future (what I will wear tomorrow; who will win the next Superbowl, etc.).
Yes, this is singular, too, asking about any individual, which individual can do this? And also, the other end of the spectrum is considered:Mr. Coffee said:"It is His hand that is outstretched, so who can turn it back?" That's a general statement about God.
Agape4Robin said::BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO: :BRAVO:
godrulz said:If His sovereign will is unchanging, then God is less free than we are.
godrulz said:If God choses to give a prophecy conditional on repentance or lack thereof, then God can change His sovereign will in response to changing circumstances or responses of men.
godrulz said:I see we like what agrees with us.