patman said:
I understood the example... as when I tried to explain the problem with this to Rob, with you apparently I am failing to show you how with the Creator of it all, foreknowledge is a factor making actions happen the way you want them to.
Essentially, and surely you could see this, his choice was to let our 'choice' be sin when he created it us if he foresaw that outcome. Whatever God set into motion was still his responsibility if he set it into motion.
The concept of God looking into the future, and seeing sinners burning eternally in hell, suffering because he created them just so, which unavoidably would lead to sin, is not very loving towards those sinners. It would have been better had they not been born (ring a bell?).
Still disagree. I know OV gets hung up on this and I appreciate that. It isn't that it doesn't make sense but it is difficult to walk into another's perspective and because there are characteristics that are God's alone, we cannot reason them completely to the endth degree. I do see most OVers (if not all, have not met one yet) as 'unable' to see to 'appreciate.' Not a slam, I think it is just similar with the other side. You've said it yourself, "You have to see it from my perspective." In that, I'm here and discussing and so I think we appreciate one another if not our views.
On to the subject: "Setting in motion." See, even some Calvinists see this dilemma, but in my mind it is solvable without implication or accusation. I think this is exactly the conclusion that "The God of Calvinism/Arminianism is a Vile Rapist Child Molester."
It is a wrong conception for liability. Implication happens when I loan my car to a bank robber for bank robbery. I am an accessory to the crime (Conclusion about Calvinists from the OV). However, if I loaned my car to a bank robber without knowing he'd rob a bank, but knew he sometimes robbed banks, I still might be implicated, but would be found innocent of the crime (loaning cars, even to a felon is not a crime). Finally, if I loaned a car to a friend and had not idea if he was a bank robber or not, I might still be implicated, but I'd be found innocent (OV).
But there is another scenario at work and it is God's sovereignty that makes the difference. Prior to the fall, there is no law except "Don't eat of the tree." Did God know His creation would disobey? It doesn't matter (but I say 'yes'). Is God then ordaining sin? "NO!" God is ordaining freewill, nothing more. "Didn't God know His creation would fall?" Yes/No (respectively).
Does THAT matter? No (SV). Why? Because God decided to do it regardless. Even in OV, the possibility of sin is understood. So OV has the same question: "Why did God do it then? Is He powerless? Did He create sin if even indirectly?" Why (in just a second) "no" and "no."
I have children by God's grace, and they were planned. "Why? That doesn't make sense. Didn't you know they would have the sin nature?"
Yeah, I did, and believe me, if God provided no hope for redemption I'd have had series doubts whether I would have had children at all.
"Couldn't something bad happen to your kids? Why in the world would you have kids in this day and age?"
To me, this is the same exact question of why God would create children with sin choice. No difference in the question, just a difference in who I am and who God is (which is a huge difference so my 'fatherhood' cannot be completely analogous but there is a truth here). I had kids to love and have a relationship with them. I had kids in hopes that they'd find redemption also in Christ and have a wonderful loving relationship with Him.
I've been through my own 'hell' in this life so I understand hurt, pain, misery and disappointment all too well. This is not where I want to go with this, it is merely anecdotal, CHRIST is worthy of new births. I would wish that all Christians would have children just for this, for Him. Relationship with Christ and God's expression of love is the reason to make a people even if they fail. God didn't create vile child abusers and molesters, sin created vile child abusers and molesters. God didn't create sin, because sin is first not a thing, it is an absence. An absence of God. God cannot create 'no god.' Second, God did not create sin, He created beings.