ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1

[godrulz]

Provide a scripture that says that Demons are angels of any type.

Provide scripture that says that the Angel of YHWH is YHWH.

z

Revelation talks about 1/3 of angels falling. God did not create Satanl; He created Lucifer. God did not create demons; He created angels who followed Lucifer. This is inferred from several passages. Google or research it yourself. I settled this issue decades ago and few dispute it.

I provided an Angel of Lord link earlier.

 

[Clete]

Matthew 12:24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub (Satan) the prince of the demons.


Isaiah 14:12 “ How you are fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!

Revelation 12:3 And another sign appeared in heaven: behold, a great, fiery red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and seven diadems on his heads. 4 His tail drew a third of the stars of heaven and threw them to the earth.

7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.​

 

[RobE]

I just watched Jesus Christ Superstar again. They are too Calvinistic on this point making God responsible for damning Judas as a pawn in His plan.

Judas was chosen after prayer to be entrusted with the inner circle/ministry of Jesus. He did not have to betray Christ. He became a betrayer. If he would have remained true or repented, somone else would have 'fulfilled' the prophecy. The verses about the betrayal are inspired in retrospect by the Holy Spirit as illustrative (the original context in the OT was about an OT historical fulfillment). They are not simple foreknowledge, predictive prophecy about Judas the man.

I'm not speaking of OT text. I'm speaking of your statement, "There is a difference between knowing one fact in advance that could be brought about and knowing every future choice of every creature exhaustively from eternity past." and Jesus' statements:

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

John 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.

Matthew 26:25 Then Judas, the one who would betray him, said, "Surely not I, Rabbi?"
Jesus answered, "Yes, it is you."​

Again I ask based upon your assertion that God knows "one fact in advance that could be brought about" : Are you presenting as fact that God caused Judas to fall?

God did NOT cause Judas to fall. He used what was in his heart eventually to bring things to pass. Even if no one betrayed Christ in that manner, there was enough mob mentality and circumstance to bring about the death of Christ. A specific betrayal is incidental to the Lamb of God dying for us. God influences only as much as necessary. In this case, not much influence was needed (cf. Pharaoh who hardened his own heart before God further judiciously hardened it).

Are you saying knowing and causing are different things? If so then will you admit that foreknowledge doesn't cause actions? Also would you acknowledge that God might know something in advance where a free will agent is concerned without harming the agents freedom of will?

This could be extrapolated to all of creation. Open Theism would assert that foreknowledge of free will actions is impossible without exception. When this is pointed out you fall back on God 'made' it happen. Well, Judas isn't a case where you want God to 'make' it happen; so now we have a third case which is denied by your first assertion. Specifically, free will is eliminated if foreknowledge is present unless God orchestrates the outcome. You can't have it both ways. Did God orchestrate it or not? If so then how by your own logic was Judas free?

Rob

 

[godrulz]

God orchestrated things around the choices that were being made in the first century. Judas' choices were free. If he would have made different choices, our Bibles would read differently than they do. Judas did not need to be coerced or caused to do what he did. He freely did what was in his heart and was influenced by Satan. Just because God used Romans to kill Jesus does not mean He predestined, ordained, or caused any specific Roman to do so. If soldier x did not do it, then soldier y could do it...with the same end result. The gospels show a dynamic warfare model, not a blueprint model, of the unfolding of history. God works within contingencies responsively and creatively. Judas became the son of perdition. He was not born nor predestined nor caused to be such.

 

[RobE]

God orchestrated things around the choices that were being made in the first century. Judas' choices were free. If he would have made different choices, our Bibles would read differently than they do. Judas did not need to be coerced or caused to do what he did. He freely did what was in his heart and was influenced by Satan. Just because God used Romans to kill Jesus does not mean He predestined, ordained, or caused any specific Roman to do so. If soldier x did not do it, then soldier y could do it...with the same end result. The gospels show a dynamic warfare model, not a blueprint model, of the unfolding of history. God works within contingencies responsively and creatively. Judas became the son of perdition. He was not born nor predestined nor caused to be such.

You know that I agree Judas' choice was free. What I disagree with is that God 'orchestrated' things around the choices being made --- specifically Christ being crucified. Your theology makes God responsible for it one way or the other. 'Forgive them for they know not what they do.', has no meaning in open theism. My position makes God free of responsibility in all instances. God did not coerce Judas, or the Romans, or any other free will agent as you would suggest. He is not a schemer, puppet master, or manipulator which is your excuse for Jesus foreknowing what Judas would do.

In fact it's your 'reason' that God knows any future event with certainty. And now I ask how did Judas remain 'free' if God foreknew that Judas would betray Him?

Jesus words:

John 13:18 "I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.

John 17:12 While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.​

Jesus words tell a different story than open theism does......

Judas became the son of perdition. He was not born nor predestined nor caused to be such

Jesus doesn't say caused(since Judas chose freely), but He does say doomed which specifies predestination.

Rob

 

[zapp]

Revelation talks about 1/3 of angels falling. God did not create Satanl; He created Lucifer. God did not create demons; He created angels who followed Lucifer. This is inferred from several passages. Google or research it yourself. I settled this issue decades ago and few dispute it.

I provided an Angel of Lord link earlier.

wrong.
the "angels that fell" are "kept in chains, awaiting judgment"... they are not demons loose, running amok among humans causing disease and insanity, mainly. Angels are of a much higher order. the fallen ones are in chains. other theories about them are occultic. call it the devil's "disinformation" campaign.

we simply don't know the origin of demons, how many there are, what their current activities are, etc. scripture does not tell us anything about this. All we know is that, in Jesus's Name, we are SUPPOSED to have authority over them.

nice try though.... totally expected

zapp

 

[patman]

Did God orchestrate the betrayal of Christ?

.........

The millions of possible outcomes which would have resulted over a 400 year period is mind boggling to say the least. I wouldn't even begin to guess what astronomical number the probability of the situation would produce against the 1 outcome that was the reality; and God foretold of it exactly over 500 years prior to the event.

Is it too hard to believe someone would be willing to betray Christ? Do you think God had to look hard to find such a person?

Forget the infinity of outcomes, focus on the likely ones. Then you can see how a smart person, or even God, could predict future outcomes.

I think you are missing the point... there are other explanations besides extensive foreknowledge, and for you to souly rely on this as your evidence is reckless as you preach that message.

Your evidence for absolute 100% foreknowledge is not complete. Why hold on to it?

 

[patman]

Provide a scripture that says that Demons are angels of any type.

Provide scripture that says that the Angel of YHWH is YHWH.

z

Here's one proof...


Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

 

[patman]

Provide scripture that says that the Angel of YHWH is YHWH.

z

I am not certain as to who the Angel of the LORD is, however he seems to represent God and speak his words, he is probably not God....

Judges 13:16
And the Angel of the LORD said to Manoah, “Though you detain Me, I will not eat your food. But if you offer a burnt offering, you must offer it to the LORD.” (For Manoah did not know He was the Angel of the LORD.)

We can trust that he does speak God's messages... angels are after all messengers.

 

[godrulz]

wrong.
the "angels that fell" are "kept in chains, awaiting judgment"... they are not demons loose, running amok among humans causing disease and insanity, mainly. Angels are of a much higher order. the fallen ones are in chains. other theories about them are occultic. call it the devil's "disinformation" campaign.

we simply don't know the origin of demons, how many there are, what their current activities are, etc. scripture does not tell us anything about this. All we know is that, in Jesus's Name, we are SUPPOSED to have authority over them.

nice try though.... totally expected

zapp

Some fallen angels are in chains while others will be in the future. Does Tartarus ring a bell? We do not have to look any further than the gospels to see how Jesus dealt with the demonized. They fell in the past, not when Christ was born. He clearly dealt with demons that were not in chains yet. Acts also has references as does Pauline teaching.

 

[RobE]

Is it too hard to believe someone would be willing to betray Christ? Do you think God had to look hard to find such a person?

No, but He had to foreknow what the person would do.

Forget the infinity of outcomes, focus on the likely ones. Then you can see how a smart person, or even God, could predict future outcomes.

In the response Hilston gave to you, Hilston pointed out how Open Theism requires God to be less intelligent than humans and how the o.v. re-creates God in his own image. Do you see why Hilston says this?

I think you are missing the point... there are other explanations besides extensive foreknowledge, and for you to souly rely on this as your evidence is reckless as you preach that message.

What explanations? Are you saying that God made it happen or something else? Please be specific and tell me how God foreknew the outcomes in the story of Joseph, Judas, and Jesus.

Still Your Friend,
Rob

 

[zapp]

Here's one proof...


Jude 1:6
And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;

Thank you pat, you made my point for me. Angels are bound, they don't go around inhabiting humans, creating sicknesses and torment. Demons are not angels, so far as scripture reveals....
now I just need to know why HE didn't slap Satan into chains and keep HIM bound until the day of judgment???
But that has nothing to do with this thread topic so i am out of here, i just can't stand to see old presumptions and unfounded traditions continue to get repeated without examination.
nice meeting you all! [well, most of you anyway]

 

[Clete]

wrong.
the "angels that fell" are "kept in chains, awaiting judgment"... they are not demons loose, running amok among humans causing disease and insanity, mainly. Angels are of a much higher order. the fallen ones are in chains. other theories about them are occultic. call it the devil's "disinformation" campaign.

we simply don't know the origin of demons, how many there are, what their current activities are, etc. scripture does not tell us anything about this. All we know is that, in Jesus's Name, we are SUPPOSED to have authority over them.

nice try though.... totally expected

zapp

For the second time now...

Revelation 12:7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them[a] in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[lawrencekennard]

Open Theism

Open Theism

Hello!
I have just joined theology online and find the discussions interesting. On open theism, I find alot of philosophical points given, but not many Bible verses. I have now become an open theist because of the many verses that simply say that God either changed His mind or that He 'now knows' what a person would do etc. In my opinion, the explanations I hear from those who taken the extreme line on predestination are nothing more than retorical dancing.

If God "repents" doesn't that mean that He changed His mind?

-Lawrence Kennard

 

[lawrencekennard]

Hello!
I have just joined theology online and find the discussions interesting. On open theism, I find alot of philosophical points given, but not many Bible verses. I have now become an open theist because of the many verses that simply say that God either changed His mind or that He 'now knows' what a person would do etc. In my opinion, the explanations I hear from those who taken the extreme line on predestination are nothing more than retorical dancing.

If God "repents" doesn't that mean that He changed His mind?

-Lawrence Kennard

 

[Clete]

Hello!
I have just joined theology online and find the discussions interesting. On open theism, I find alot of philosophical points given, but not many Bible verses. I have now become an open theist because of the many verses that simply say that God either changed His mind or that He 'now knows' what a person would do etc. In my opinion, the explanations I hear from those who taken the extreme line on predestination are nothing more than retorical dancing.

If God "repents" doesn't that mean that He changed His mind?

-Lawrence Kennard

Lawrence,

Good point!

You are correct, these discussions tend to be more on the level of ideas and philosophical arguments rather than being strictly Biblical because it's one's hermeneutics that determine which Bible verses you are going to take literally and which you are going to take as figures of speech. Biblical arguments quickly become a contest of proof texts in which neither side makes any progress against the other because of this hermeneutic and therefore philosophical difference in the way the Bible is understood.

In a nutshell the hermeneutical difference between the Open View and the Settled View is in that the Open View believer interprets Scripture with an emphasis on the QUALITATIVE attributes (i.e. loving, relational, righteous, just, etc) of God whereas the Settled View says that they don't place any emphasis at all on one attribute over another but in the end they have no choice but to do so and they invariably place their emphasis on God's QUANTITATIVE attributes (i.e. immutability, absolute sovereignty, omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence, etc).

Resting in Him,
Clete

 

[godrulz]

In addition, there are two motifs in Scripture: some of the future is open/unsettled, while other aspects are closed/settled. Open Theists take both sets at face value, while closed theists dismiss the open verses as figurative or anthropomorphic, without warrant. The Bible should be understood in a normative, literal sense, while recognizing obvious figures of speech (Jesus is not a loaf of bread or wooden door, but God does change His mind at times).

 

[patman]

Hello!
I have just joined theology online and find the discussions interesting. On open theism, I find alot of philosophical points given, but not many Bible verses. I have now become an open theist because of the many verses that simply say that God either changed His mind or that He 'now knows' what a person would do etc. In my opinion, the explanations I hear from those who taken the extreme line on predestination are nothing more than retorical dancing.

If God "repents" doesn't that mean that He changed His mind?

-Lawrence Kennard

Welcome Mr. Kennard.

I am compelled for that and many other reasons that the O.V. is the closest to accurate theology today. I hope you find your relationship with God strengthened as I have.

 

[patman]

No, but He had to foreknow what the person would do.

Rob, at any given time, there are hundreds of people who would gladly betray Jesus if not kill them himself. All God has to do is give one the opportunity i.e. be close enough to Christ, and they will most likely do it.

It so happened to be Judas. If Judas didn't do it, one of the Pharisees would have. If they wouldn't do it, one of the leading Romans would. There are many outcomes that could fulfill scripture.

But even if it didn't happen the exact way Prophecy said it would, so what? God has allowed prophecies to change before, has he not? Yes he has. And you know that, yet still you think he knows the future?

In the response Hilston gave to you, Hilston pointed out how Open Theism requires God to be less intelligent than humans and how the o.v. re-creates God in his own image. Do you see why Hilston says this?

Not in relationship to the O.Ver's I know and the theology I believe. God has to be super intelligent to predict what he does, and to know when to change his mind for those he "didn't predict."

With respect to Hilston, his criticism to the O.V. is easily returned with criticism to the S.V. by saying it makes God out to be the Author of sin..... and he isn't.

What explanations? Are you saying that God made it happen or something else? Please be specific and tell me how God foreknew the outcomes in the story of Joseph, Judas, and Jesus.

Rob, there is too much involved. You think I can fully explain, or even comprehend God's ability to predict outcomes? I can just tell the basics. God knows people's hearts. In general. It is like a statisticians predicting marketing trends and being right, God knows how people are and how they react.

Joseph - God didn't make a lot of prophecies about him.. he needed a way to get them to Egypt, Joseph ended up being the solution. God worked with his knowledge of the present to get the outcome he desired.

Judas - God, again, had plenty of people matching Judas' resume available at anytime in any civilization in history. Did God make him do it? Did he have to do it? Was he destined by prophecy to do it as you and your unwittingly-knowing, anti-freewill message claims? No. Would someone else have one it? Very likely.. like 99.999999 percent.

Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them? So what other evidence do you have?

 

[RobE]

Rob, at any given time, there are hundreds of people who would gladly betray Jesus if not kill them himself. All God has to do is give one the opportunity i.e. be close enough to Christ, and they will most likely do it.

But would they? And did God set Jesus up?

It so happened to be Judas. If Judas didn't do it, one of the Pharisees would have. If they wouldn't do it, one of the leading Romans would. There are many outcomes that could fulfill scripture.

In all these cases God would have to foreknow that they would do it!

But even if it didn't happen the exact way Prophecy said it would, so what? God has allowed prophecies to change before, has he not? Yes he has. And you know that, yet still you think he knows the future?

Well, I know that God has said A was coming unless B happened.

With respect to Hilston, his criticism to the O.V. is easily returned with criticism to the S.V. by saying it makes God out to be the Author of sin..... and he isn't.

Much like standing by as a spectator to sin in the O.V.

Rob, there is too much involved. You think I can fully explain, or even comprehend God's ability to predict outcomes? I can just tell the basics. God knows people's hearts. In general. It is like a statisticians predicting marketing trends and being right, God knows how people are and how they react.

How well does He know and how intelligent is He; according to the O.V.?

Joseph - God didn't make a lot of prophecies about him.. he needed a way to get them to Egypt, Joseph ended up being the solution. God worked with his knowledge of the present to get the outcome he desired.

Over four hundred years and through thousands(or even millions) free will choices. God is unable to figure out what you will do according the Open Theism. How could this be possible using the same logic?

Judas - God, again, had plenty of people matching Judas' resume available at anytime in any civilization in history. Did God make him do it? Did he have to do it? Was he destined by prophecy to do it as you and your unwittingly-knowing, anti-freewill message claims? No. Would someone else have one it? Very likely.. like 99.999999 percent.

Well, my message is that Judas did it completely from free will without manipulation or coercion. Open Theism makes Judas a tool towards Christ's death. From my position it was simply 'foreseen' as you well know.

Don't you see there are ways God can proclaim future events without actually first hand seeing them?

How? You've failed to present 'other ways' except for God manipulating man for His own ends which goes against your core belief about how God works. Getting Joseph enslaved was one way you said God could have manipulated history. How many other 'evils' did God author in your opinion?

So what other evidence do you have?

Jesus Christ.

Rob