themuzicman
Well-known member
RobE said:
For OVT, God makes His purposes happen as time unfolds. The rest is unordained, unarranged, etc.
Michael
ARCHIVE: Open Theism part 1
- Thread starter ChristisKing
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For OVT, God makes His purposes happen as time unfolds. The rest is unordained, unarranged, etc.
Michael
themuzicman
Well-known member
Hilston said:
Wow, Hilst... Is your God even potent? Mine is suffiiently omnipotent that He doesn't need to fix the end game to make things happen.
Is yours?
Michael
Philetus
New member
March 21, 2006
Believe or disbelieve what you want to about prayer. I really don’t care. But, when it comes to telling people what God can or can’t do, will or won’t do ..... just shut up. The mystery is too holy to handle and too much a mystery to always have to explain. Just accept it by faith. And for God’s sake, don’t start a TV ministry or a denomination, no matter which side you come down on. And for the sake of the ‘wretched of the earth’ don’t make a career of it either. :chuckle: (I hope you see the humor in that.)
I have total confidence in scriptures that say God is in control. I also think that you need to give some consideration to the fact that control is not all the bible has to say about God.
Is it too late to hit the delete button?
Philetus
Hey Hilston,
I’ll take your bait: hook, line and sinker.
As the pastor at a Christian organization that provides help for families and individuals in need, I spent my Wednesdays assisting guests carry and load groceries in their cars, trucks, wagons, bike-baskets and buggies. When we lost the older part of our building due to age we had to come up with a new system and the alley out back became a holy place of mystery.
Every Wednesday, between 9am and 3:30pm, hundreds of families would shop inside the food pantry and their full groceries bins would be shoved through the basement window into the alley. (It’s wasn’t as archaic as it sounds. We had a great conveyor system.) Then the guests would drive through the alley and we would load their groceries into their vehicles. We always thanked them for coming. “You get the food and we get the blessings.” Most times they would begin telling us how much the food was needed and all the problems they were facing. That’s when we would ask if we could pray for them. With very few exceptions, the answer would be yes. Many times they would return the next Wednesday, not for more food but to tell how God had answered prayer for help, employment, reconciliation, the return of a runaway child or many other things.
It wasn’t long before we realized that the move to the alley was a move from under the protection of the awning we had come to take for granted. It came down in the ‘disaster’. One wet Wednesday I prayed., “Lord, we are your servants and these people need to know your care. But, I’m too old to do this in the rain. If you won't replace the awning could you hold off on the rain from 9 to 3:30 on Wednesdays till we get our building rebuilt?” I was serious, but remember thinking ‘help my unbelief’.
Short story: it did not rain in the alley between 9am and 3:30 pm for 52 Wednesdays straight! Some Wednesdays it rained before and some after, but not while we were in the alley. A few of those days were cold and snowy. (I’ve learned to be more specific in some prayers.) It got to be fun among the volunteers watching it cloud up and pass over. One volunteer in particular tried to get a ‘pool’ going on when it would rain again on Wednesday in the alley. We put a quick end to that, but I never will forget that on the 42nd Wednesday he prayed and acknowledged Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
We all learned to trust God more during that year. There was an old abandoned house that stood across the alley. It was used by some for things that were contrary to our purpose and one day several of us were standing and praying, just thanking God for being God, and one prayed that it would be nice if that old house were gone. The next morning I was sitting at my desk and heard a loud noise from across the hall. When Bob came in I asked what all the commotion was. He said they were moving some heavy machinery in the alley. I walked across the hall into Betty’s office just in time to look out the window and see the long arm of a backhoe land in the middle of the old house and bring it to the ground. By 5pm the lot was level.
Now, you might think all that was coincidence. Or maybe that we are super Christians or something. Not at all; trust me. We are ordinary everyday people with mustard-seed-faith. And that’s only a few of the many stories I could tell. But, the greatest stories are the ones that took longer to unfold and are still unfolding. (Maybe the best are unknown to even us.) I don’t think about it much anymore ... it has become a lifestyle.
I no longer work for an organization for income. I pastor about 300 ‘unchurched’ people. People who live in shelters, in prisons, on the streets or those who just haven’t made their way into the sanctuary yet. Many are from the alley days at the pantry, where I still volunteer on most Wednesdays and yes it does rain occasionally. I just don’t waste my time in an office anymore worrying about buildings or budgets. God has other faithful servants for that. Not long ago a young man stopped me at the local homeless shelter and asked, “Do you remember me?” Yes, I think I do (but, I was fishing for details and he had plenty.) “You took me home from the outback at the pantry last year and we prayed. God answered that prayer and that’s why I was in church this morning and why I’m here helping out now.”
On Tuesday nights we have a bible study in the club house at an apartment complex for low income families. Two weeks ago I was approached by a woman who reminded me that I had prayed with her for her husband over a year ago. I won’t go into details (his story has been in the national news) but God answered that prayer and many since in very certain terms and now they attend on Tuesday nights when able. Charles has a long way to go physically, but, what a testimony! And a singing voce to match. That’s just one more of hundreds of stories I or others could tell.
The greatest scepticism to stories such as these is met by Christians who believe God is already in meticulous control of everything or unbelievers (even in the alley) who have been in someway influenced by such doctrines. I don’t want to be known for the stories. I want to be know as just-one-nobody in whom Christ lives and acts in the everyday real world. Hence, my reluctance to tell them on line. There is an even greater disinclination on my part. The power of God in answered prayers is for the ones answered --- not for an audience. “It is a wicked and perverse generation that seeks signs." I think this in part (not some ‘messianic secrete’) is why Jesus at times told those He healed to ‘tell no one.’ My only hope in sharing this with you is that your faith may increase and your reluctance to ask God for anything at all will diminish. Like Peter said, ‘Why look at us as if we did anything?’ It’s all about God making Himself know to those who seek Him, and ignoring the naysayers for the time being. (Before you jump on that last statement ... read below.
Jesus still has the best stories and the only ones really worth telling. I especially like the ones in Luke 7. Peterson’s translation isn’t much for word study but the street language makes it hard to miss the point. I like it because it gets in my face. Maybe it will get in yours too. I also like it because when we use it in the alley the word just sneaks up on unbelievers and they say, “Is that in the bible?” because it doesn’t always square with their preexisting piecemeal theologies. When we read it to them in a more literal translation (and we just read it a lot in the alley) they go, “Whoa, God does that?!!!! Let me see that.” I’ve lost a lot of bibles that way.
I’ll take your bait: hook, line and sinker.
As the pastor at a Christian organization that provides help for families and individuals in need, I spent my Wednesdays assisting guests carry and load groceries in their cars, trucks, wagons, bike-baskets and buggies. When we lost the older part of our building due to age we had to come up with a new system and the alley out back became a holy place of mystery.
Every Wednesday, between 9am and 3:30pm, hundreds of families would shop inside the food pantry and their full groceries bins would be shoved through the basement window into the alley. (It’s wasn’t as archaic as it sounds. We had a great conveyor system.) Then the guests would drive through the alley and we would load their groceries into their vehicles. We always thanked them for coming. “You get the food and we get the blessings.” Most times they would begin telling us how much the food was needed and all the problems they were facing. That’s when we would ask if we could pray for them. With very few exceptions, the answer would be yes. Many times they would return the next Wednesday, not for more food but to tell how God had answered prayer for help, employment, reconciliation, the return of a runaway child or many other things.
It wasn’t long before we realized that the move to the alley was a move from under the protection of the awning we had come to take for granted. It came down in the ‘disaster’. One wet Wednesday I prayed., “Lord, we are your servants and these people need to know your care. But, I’m too old to do this in the rain. If you won't replace the awning could you hold off on the rain from 9 to 3:30 on Wednesdays till we get our building rebuilt?” I was serious, but remember thinking ‘help my unbelief’.
Short story: it did not rain in the alley between 9am and 3:30 pm for 52 Wednesdays straight! Some Wednesdays it rained before and some after, but not while we were in the alley. A few of those days were cold and snowy. (I’ve learned to be more specific in some prayers.) It got to be fun among the volunteers watching it cloud up and pass over. One volunteer in particular tried to get a ‘pool’ going on when it would rain again on Wednesday in the alley. We put a quick end to that, but I never will forget that on the 42nd Wednesday he prayed and acknowledged Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
We all learned to trust God more during that year. There was an old abandoned house that stood across the alley. It was used by some for things that were contrary to our purpose and one day several of us were standing and praying, just thanking God for being God, and one prayed that it would be nice if that old house were gone. The next morning I was sitting at my desk and heard a loud noise from across the hall. When Bob came in I asked what all the commotion was. He said they were moving some heavy machinery in the alley. I walked across the hall into Betty’s office just in time to look out the window and see the long arm of a backhoe land in the middle of the old house and bring it to the ground. By 5pm the lot was level.
Now, you might think all that was coincidence. Or maybe that we are super Christians or something. Not at all; trust me. We are ordinary everyday people with mustard-seed-faith. And that’s only a few of the many stories I could tell. But, the greatest stories are the ones that took longer to unfold and are still unfolding. (Maybe the best are unknown to even us.) I don’t think about it much anymore ... it has become a lifestyle.
I no longer work for an organization for income. I pastor about 300 ‘unchurched’ people. People who live in shelters, in prisons, on the streets or those who just haven’t made their way into the sanctuary yet. Many are from the alley days at the pantry, where I still volunteer on most Wednesdays and yes it does rain occasionally. I just don’t waste my time in an office anymore worrying about buildings or budgets. God has other faithful servants for that. Not long ago a young man stopped me at the local homeless shelter and asked, “Do you remember me?” Yes, I think I do (but, I was fishing for details and he had plenty.) “You took me home from the outback at the pantry last year and we prayed. God answered that prayer and that’s why I was in church this morning and why I’m here helping out now.”
On Tuesday nights we have a bible study in the club house at an apartment complex for low income families. Two weeks ago I was approached by a woman who reminded me that I had prayed with her for her husband over a year ago. I won’t go into details (his story has been in the national news) but God answered that prayer and many since in very certain terms and now they attend on Tuesday nights when able. Charles has a long way to go physically, but, what a testimony! And a singing voce to match. That’s just one more of hundreds of stories I or others could tell.
The greatest scepticism to stories such as these is met by Christians who believe God is already in meticulous control of everything or unbelievers (even in the alley) who have been in someway influenced by such doctrines. I don’t want to be known for the stories. I want to be know as just-one-nobody in whom Christ lives and acts in the everyday real world. Hence, my reluctance to tell them on line. There is an even greater disinclination on my part. The power of God in answered prayers is for the ones answered --- not for an audience. “It is a wicked and perverse generation that seeks signs." I think this in part (not some ‘messianic secrete’) is why Jesus at times told those He healed to ‘tell no one.’ My only hope in sharing this with you is that your faith may increase and your reluctance to ask God for anything at all will diminish. Like Peter said, ‘Why look at us as if we did anything?’ It’s all about God making Himself know to those who seek Him, and ignoring the naysayers for the time being. (Before you jump on that last statement ... read below.
Jesus still has the best stories and the only ones really worth telling. I especially like the ones in Luke 7. Peterson’s translation isn’t much for word study but the street language makes it hard to miss the point. I like it because it gets in my face. Maybe it will get in yours too. I also like it because when we use it in the alley the word just sneaks up on unbelievers and they say, “Is that in the bible?” because it doesn’t always square with their preexisting piecemeal theologies. When we read it to them in a more literal translation (and we just read it a lot in the alley) they go, “Whoa, God does that?!!!! Let me see that.” I’ve lost a lot of bibles that way.
Believe or disbelieve what you want to about prayer. I really don’t care. But, when it comes to telling people what God can or can’t do, will or won’t do ..... just shut up. The mystery is too holy to handle and too much a mystery to always have to explain. Just accept it by faith. And for God’s sake, don’t start a TV ministry or a denomination, no matter which side you come down on. And for the sake of the ‘wretched of the earth’ don’t make a career of it either. :chuckle: (I hope you see the humor in that.)
I have total confidence in scriptures that say God is in control. I also think that you need to give some consideration to the fact that control is not all the bible has to say about God.
Is it too late to hit the delete button?
Philetus
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Michael
Since aweful may have become an accepted word since it is used by so many, I must admit that our view of scripture should be filled with awe. Our wonderful God sent His Son to die for the whole world and prepared a place in heaven for all who believe.
Of course, you may have meant the word awful. But I’ll have to wait on that.
Bob Hill
Since aweful may have become an accepted word since it is used by so many, I must admit that our view of scripture should be filled with awe. Our wonderful God sent His Son to die for the whole world and prepared a place in heaven for all who believe.
Of course, you may have meant the word awful. But I’ll have to wait on that.
Bob Hill
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
Dear James,
No I do not, because God’s election is a corporate election of the body of Christ, not an individual election. God is loving. The Bible says He wasn’t willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
Again, God is love. He sent His Son to pay for the sins of everyone who would accept his death as payment. But God’s sense of Justice will not allow those who reject his Son to go unpunished. Again, God’s love is seen in that, since he knows that mankind will not seek him on their own, he sends his Holy Spirit to draw all who will respond to His call and will be his elect.
God’s justice demands the death penalty for sin - either eternal death or the death of Jesus Christ. By his love and mercy He will allow any to come to him and by his greater love He draws many to Himself. His incredible grace and mercy will not only spare those who accept His Son from the penalty of sin, but God will receive them as sons and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. The Scripture shows that He enables all to come to Him.
Do you believe, like Hilston, that God has ordained everything that will happen? If so, then all those who do not believe were ordained to not believe. Where is God’s love there? Do you believe that God is immutable, unchangeable in all His plans? If so, did He make those immutable plans before these people, who do not come to Him, were born? If so, they could not come to Him because He ordained them to not come. That would mean that God will only save the elect and consigns all others to hell.
When we read the Bible, we often run into portions of Scripture which seem to say that only the elect can believe and be saved. When we read theology books, we find that most theologians think God saves only the ones He chose to be saved and all others are preordained for eternal damnation. John Calvin made this idea popular. I disagree.
This is what John Calvin wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares simply deny predestination, by which God adopts some to hope of life, and sentences others to eternal death. . . . When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things always were, and perpetually remain, under his eyes; so that to his knowledge there is nothing future or past, but all things are present. And they are present in such a way that . . . he discerns them as things placed before him. And this foreknowledge is extended throughout the universe to every creature. We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is preordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death.” He wrote that in his, Institutes of the Christian Religion, v. 2 Bk III, Ch XXI, sec. 5, p 926.
Another Calvinist, John Gill, wrote in his The Doctrine of Particular Redemption, p 8. that those who believe, believe because they already are Christ’s sheep: “The objects of redemption . . . are described as sheep. They are said to be the sheep of Christ, in whom He has a special property, being given Him by His Father. They are represented as being distinct from others who are not His sheep. John 10:15,26 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
How did they become Christ’s sheep? The Father gave them to Christ. John 17:1,2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.”
I disagree with these men. I believe we can see from Scripture that everyone has a choice. God puts in everyone the ability to believe. 1 Ti 2:4 God “wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Earlier in Jo 5:37-47, He said they had a choice, but in the first place, they didn’t believe Moses. Second, they didn’t want to come to Christ. John 5:37-47 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you; Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Christ was showing these unbelieving Jews that they were not His sheep because they were unwilling to come to Him for eternal life. He told them their fate in Mat 8:12 “But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They had the opportunity to hear and learn from the Father. Also look closely at Jo 6:33-45. Christ was talking with the ones He fed (John 6:26). John 6:33-45 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.” By this unbelief, they conformed themselves to the apostate nation.
Then, in verse 37, He said, All. But the extent of this all depends. John 6:37-40,44,45 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” The Father gives all those of John 6:45, everyone who hears and learned. But He doesn’t give those of verses 64,65, who do not believe: John 6:64,65 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning (the beginning of His encounter with them) who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Further, one of those who were given to Christ, Judas, according to John 17:12, was lost. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition. Judas was one of “those whom You gave Me”, but he did not continue and was lost.
Compare this with John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” When I wrote that Judas did not continue in belief, implying that he had been a believer, I based that on John 2:11: “This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. ” When it says His disciples believed in Him, this would include Judas.
Now let’s read the rest. John 6:37-39 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” When He says, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,” this “all” refers to those who listened and learned, but especially the apostles.
Notice how John 17:6 and 18:9 substantiate this. John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 18:8,9 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me (He is quoting John 6:37-40 and 10:29.) I have lost none.” Judas thwarted God’s will for him to be saved, so we see they, in that dispensation, had to continue in belief. John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we know how it was granted by the Father. Everyone who was willing to hear and learned was granted by the father to come to Christ. That’s what it says in John 6:64,65 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning [The beginning of their unbelief.] who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, ‘Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.’”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
No I do not, because God’s election is a corporate election of the body of Christ, not an individual election. God is loving. The Bible says He wasn’t willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9 “The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.”
Again, God is love. He sent His Son to pay for the sins of everyone who would accept his death as payment. But God’s sense of Justice will not allow those who reject his Son to go unpunished. Again, God’s love is seen in that, since he knows that mankind will not seek him on their own, he sends his Holy Spirit to draw all who will respond to His call and will be his elect.
God’s justice demands the death penalty for sin - either eternal death or the death of Jesus Christ. By his love and mercy He will allow any to come to him and by his greater love He draws many to Himself. His incredible grace and mercy will not only spare those who accept His Son from the penalty of sin, but God will receive them as sons and joint heirs with Jesus Christ. The Scripture shows that He enables all to come to Him.
Do you believe, like Hilston, that God has ordained everything that will happen? If so, then all those who do not believe were ordained to not believe. Where is God’s love there? Do you believe that God is immutable, unchangeable in all His plans? If so, did He make those immutable plans before these people, who do not come to Him, were born? If so, they could not come to Him because He ordained them to not come. That would mean that God will only save the elect and consigns all others to hell.
When we read the Bible, we often run into portions of Scripture which seem to say that only the elect can believe and be saved. When we read theology books, we find that most theologians think God saves only the ones He chose to be saved and all others are preordained for eternal damnation. John Calvin made this idea popular. I disagree.
This is what John Calvin wrote: “No one who wishes to be thought religious dares simply deny predestination, by which God adopts some to hope of life, and sentences others to eternal death. . . . When we attribute foreknowledge to God, we mean that all things always were, and perpetually remain, under his eyes; so that to his knowledge there is nothing future or past, but all things are present. And they are present in such a way that . . . he discerns them as things placed before him. And this foreknowledge is extended throughout the universe to every creature. We call predestination God’s eternal decree, by which he compacted with himself what he willed to become of each man. For all are not created in equal condition; rather, eternal life is preordained for some, eternal damnation for others. Therefore, as any man has been created to one or the other of these ends, we speak of him as predestined to life or to death.” He wrote that in his, Institutes of the Christian Religion, v. 2 Bk III, Ch XXI, sec. 5, p 926.
Another Calvinist, John Gill, wrote in his The Doctrine of Particular Redemption, p 8. that those who believe, believe because they already are Christ’s sheep: “The objects of redemption . . . are described as sheep. They are said to be the sheep of Christ, in whom He has a special property, being given Him by His Father. They are represented as being distinct from others who are not His sheep. John 10:15,26 As the Father knows Me, even so I know the Father; and I lay down My life for the sheep. 26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
How did they become Christ’s sheep? The Father gave them to Christ. John 17:1,2 Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, 2 as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him.”
I disagree with these men. I believe we can see from Scripture that everyone has a choice. God puts in everyone the ability to believe. 1 Ti 2:4 God “wills all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.”
Earlier in Jo 5:37-47, He said they had a choice, but in the first place, they didn’t believe Moses. Second, they didn’t want to come to Christ. John 5:37-47 “And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form. 38 But you do not have His word abiding in you, because whom He sent, Him you do not believe. 39 You search the Scriptures, for in them you think you have eternal life; and these are they which testify of Me. 40 And you are not willing to come to Me that you may have life. 41 I do not receive honor from men. 42 But I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. 43 I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive Me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive. 44 How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? 45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you; Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”
Christ was showing these unbelieving Jews that they were not His sheep because they were unwilling to come to Him for eternal life. He told them their fate in Mat 8:12 “But the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into outer darkness. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” They had the opportunity to hear and learn from the Father. Also look closely at Jo 6:33-45. Christ was talking with the ones He fed (John 6:26). John 6:33-45 “For the bread of God is He who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.” 34 Then they said to Him, “Lord, give us this bread always.” 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.” By this unbelief, they conformed themselves to the apostate nation.
Then, in verse 37, He said, All. But the extent of this all depends. John 6:37-40,44,45 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.” 44 “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 “It is written in the prophets, ‘And they shall all be taught by God.’ Therefore everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Me.” The Father gives all those of John 6:45, everyone who hears and learned. But He doesn’t give those of verses 64,65, who do not believe: John 6:64,65 “But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning (the beginning of His encounter with them) who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
Further, one of those who were given to Christ, Judas, according to John 17:12, was lost. John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in Your name. Those whom You gave Me I have kept; and none of them is lost except the son of perdition. Judas was one of “those whom You gave Me”, but he did not continue and was lost.
Compare this with John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.” When I wrote that Judas did not continue in belief, implying that he had been a believer, I based that on John 2:11: “This beginning of signs Jesus did in Cana of Galilee, and manifested His glory; and His disciples believed in Him. ” When it says His disciples believed in Him, this would include Judas.
Now let’s read the rest. John 6:37-39 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.” When He says, “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing,” this “all” refers to those who listened and learned, but especially the apostles.
Notice how John 17:6 and 18:9 substantiate this. John 17:6 I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. John 18:8,9 Jesus answered, “I have told you that I am He. Therefore, if you seek Me, let these go their way,” 9 that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, “Of those whom You gave Me (He is quoting John 6:37-40 and 10:29.) I have lost none.” Judas thwarted God’s will for him to be saved, so we see they, in that dispensation, had to continue in belief. John 15:6 “If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned.
Now we know how it was granted by the Father. Everyone who was willing to hear and learned was granted by the father to come to Christ. That’s what it says in John 6:64,65 But there are some of you who do not believe. For Jesus knew from the beginning [The beginning of their unbelief.] who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him. 65 And He said, ‘Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.’”
In Christ,
Bob Hill
Hilston claims you are wrong to pray for your freind.sentientsynth said:
Hilston said:
I, on the other hand, will reassert my position that , at least some small part of you, believes his future has not been predetermined, and hopes that your prayer will make a difference.
sentientsynth
New member
Yes, he did. And he made an excellent point. One which I am fully considering and is causing me to re-evaluate my stance on prayer. Remind me to thank him for his time and energy.deardelmar said:
Also, thank you, delmar, for your attentiveness on the apparent disagreement between us.
However, could it be that I simply haven't thoroughly reflected upon this matter of prayer?
Hmm.....
Which ought I be faster to consider? My ignorance, or God's ignorance?
Sometimes we get exasperated, desperate even, about loved ones that we're rightly concerned about and would love nothing more than to find out that they are among the elect. We cry out to God and plead with Him sometimes in our frustration, but this should not be confused with prayer.deardelmar said:
There are few things that can compare to the joy and exhilaration of discovering that someone you care about is indeed among the elect and to see them come to realize that in their experience. But it's not biblical to pray that someone would "be elect," because the individuals were chosen before creation. You will not find a prayer in scripture for unsaved people to come to salvation precisely for that reason.
False dichotomy. Believers pray with the Hope (joyful and confident expectation, not a mere wish) that our prayers make precisely the difference that they were predetermined to make, and that the predetermined future will inexorably come to pass. Our prayers are as much a part of the predetermined future as its outcome.deardelmar said:
Notice that deardelmar says "and hopes that your prayer will make a difference." That sounds nothing like the confident and unwavering Hope that scripture teaches. It sounds more like a wish. It's like a child who is so accustomed to being ignored or flatly told "no," but still asks and "hopes" that this time, maybe, possibly, probably not, but who knows, it might be different. That's the view of the Open Deist. He has no confidence, no joyful expection, just an empty pathetic wish. You might as well toss pennies into a fountain at the mall. And of course this follows, given the fact that the Unsettled God doesn't really do anything, except maybe secretly plants thoughts every once in a while, if someone raises enough ruckus.
sentientsynth
New member
I'm just crackers for cheese!
The Elect we know about are folks such as Moses, Enoch, Jeremiah and Paul to name a few. They stood with God during Satan's rebellion. I suppose there are more. Satan and his followers are definitely not the Elect.
The ret of us get to make the choice of God or Satan.
The ret of us get to make the choice of God or Satan.
No kidding.sentientsynth said:
Bob Hill
TOL Subscriber
At one time I actually held to the view that God knew all of time because He was not in time Himself. But when someone confronted me and asked for a biblical basis for my view, after I studied and studied, I realized that I had no biblical basis for believing that. I came to understand that the whole concept of God outside of time and seeing all things as an eternal now was from Greek philosophy and, in modern times, from the theory of relativity.
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it. He just makes it happen the way He wants it to happen. But I believe, from God’s Word, that He makes things happen very seldom.
The most important thing that happened for me was when I learned about the Hebrew word nacham. Nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God about 30 times. The use of that word in scripture, really affected me greatly. I prefer the passage in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word, nacham, relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe that if the future actions of free agents are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists.
In Christ,
Bob
Now, I understand from the Bible that God can know the future. But the Bible shows us when He does. He determines it. When He determines it, He makes it happen. Therefore, He can know that it will happen, but that does not mean that He knows it because He looks into the future to know it. He just makes it happen the way He wants it to happen. But I believe, from God’s Word, that He makes things happen very seldom.
The most important thing that happened for me was when I learned about the Hebrew word nacham. Nacham, repent, is used in the Bible in reference to God about 30 times. The use of that word in scripture, really affected me greatly. I prefer the passage in Exodus where it shows God repented of stated harm because of Moses’ prayer. Ex 32:9-14 And the LORD said to Moses, “I have seen this people, and indeed it is a stiff-necked people! 10 Now therefore, let Me alone, that My wrath may burn hot against them and I may consume them. And I will make of you a great nation.” 11 Then Moses pleaded with the LORD his God, and said: “LORD, why does Your wrath burn hot against Your people whom You have brought out of the land of Egypt with great power and with a mighty hand? 12 Why should the Egyptians speak, and say, ‘He brought them out to harm them, to kill them in the mountains, and to consume them from the face of the earth’? Turn from Your fierce wrath, and repent from this harm to Your people. 13 Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, Your servants, to whom You swore by Your own self, and said to them, ‘I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven; and all this land that I have spoken of I give to your descendants, and they shall inherit it forever.’” 14 So the LORD repented from the harm which He said He would do to His people.
From this and many other passages with that Hebrew word, nacham, relating to God, I have drawn this conclusion. If God was outside of time and saw the future actions of men, God could never be wrong about predictions. I also believe that if the future actions of free agents are unknowable because they have not been decided, our all knowing God would not know them. None of them actually exist, so there is nothing to know.
God always exists in time. But, time is no restraint to Him like it is to us. We need to rest at times. But He doesn’t. We are growing old. He is always the same it that attribute. Most of us have deadlines to keep and other time responsibilities that are measured by time. With God, time is no burden. I see time as the measure between two events. Since God can control every event, if He so desires, time is never a burden to Him at all. He created the universe. We haven’t even seen the farthest galaxy in this tremendous universe. When God created it, it seems like it was instantaneous. Therefore, I do not believe the future exists.
In Christ,
Bob
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