Sozo
New member
drbrumley said:For the sake of argument SS, I don't believe time is created.
:thumb:
Exactly right. Time is not a thing, and neither is space.
drbrumley said:For the sake of argument SS, I don't believe time is created.
But the question remains, Dr. Brumley, Why don't you believe that time was created?Dr. Brumley said:For the sake of argument SS, I don't believe time is created.
True. But only with sufficiently high dosages of LSD.Sozo said:Time is not a thing, and neither is space.
seekinganswers said:Philetus,
If you believe that the future is held in humanity, than you have given in to the lie of the world. You have seen the shroud of evil, and have been made to believe that it is real (that it consists in itself). The future is not in the events that are yet to come; the future is held within the will. And I suppose with that regard there are two futures, and yet they are united in God, for it is only God's will that has power to create, and power to sustain. The first future is held within those who hope in the return of Christ (a return that is as certain within the future as we are certain of it now), who are sustained in his faithfulness, and who live in his love. The second future is really no future at all, for once God has revealed the truth by bringing everything into the light, those who were hostile towards God will be shown for the nothing that they were. The light will cast out darkness, and the darkness will be no more; Evil isn't a present reality; evil is a present blindness that continues to dupe us all into believing that true power is found in the one with the biggest guns. Evil only has power with absence (when the light fades). Thus, evil is contingent upon the good. Its power is parasitic, and its is death.
The future is now with God, not in a God that resides in a future time (for God is not bounded within time, but is the kephale (the head) and the telos (the culmination) of time; In Christ and through the Spirit God continues to shape the Creation to bring it to his rest (and it will be accomplished; it is not in doubt; God does not need to respond to humanity to bring this about; in fact, God has brought humanity to its proper telos by Christ and through the Spirit).
Finally, God is never passive in this world. Your "allowing nature" of God is just sickening to me. God doesn't "allow" things to happen. God is active within all things because God is the "all in all." Christ didn't suffer passively. Christ's suffering was active, an obedience toward God. Christ didn't allow humanity to kill him; Christ obeyed the Father even unto death, and so demonstrated that none had the power to destroy him, for his life consisted in God the Father. God doesn't allow evil, but overcomes evil through the practice of good. God does not come against evil on the terms that is set by those who are corrupt. God confronts the corruption with good, and in this way overcomes. And we too are called to overcome evil through the practice of what is right and good and pleasing to God. The God who allows things to happen is a God who does not act. The God who acts shows that those who act in opposition to him have only accomplished their own defeat; they are dust and will return to dust (a very good lenten sentiment).
The God who allows things is the God who listens to the cries of his people and does nothing. That is not the God revealed to Abraham (for God brings life to a barren womb); that is not the God revealed to Israel in Egypt (for God delivers his people from bondage); it most certainly is not the God of the exhile (who chastizes those whom God loves); and without doubt Christ reveals an active God not an "allowing" God (for God in Christ comes near to us to draw us closer to God). God is not powerless (indifferent) to the evil of our age (waiting for the eschaton to come), nor does God sit back and wait for the faithful to pray for him to come; God acts in drawing up those who are faithful to him and through this people calls the world back to himself. The eschaton is already here; judgment is already being pronounced on this world. And those who are pronouncing this judgment are the ones living faithfully among the ekklesia of God. God doesn't wait for us to pray to him. God is already active before we even thought to pray to him.
Peace,
Michael
Show me time or space.sentientsynth said:But the question remains, Dr. Brumley, Why don't you believe that time was created?
True. But only with sufficiently high dosages of LSD.
SS
Posted by Sozo at 7:48 PM.Sozo said:Time is not a thing, and neither is space.
Posted by Sozo at 9:08 PM.Sozo said:Show me time or space.
sentientsynth said:Posted by Sozo at 7:48 PM.
Posted by Sozo at 9:08 PM.
Between these two posts by Sozo a total of 80 minutes passed. This, ladies and gentlemen, is time. These two events did not occur simultaneously.
| -----------X--------------- |
The mangitude of X is appoximately 2.5 inches. The two terminal lines do not occur at the same points. This, ladies and gentlemen, is space.
If you can't understand this, then you have no business taking part in debate. Sozo is a moron.
SS
Sozo said:You are a dumbass.
You have shown nothing but measurements and events. There is no such thing as an inch or a minute. They are both fabrications for communication purposes only.
Philetus, you're not getting this for some reason. I believe God answers prayers. I believe God does things for people who ask. It makes sense in my view. I don't see how it makes sense in yours. So please indulge me, and everyone else reading this who would really like to know: How does the Open Theist conception of God make sense of prayer. Can you pray for someone's salvation? No, because that would involve God mucking around with someone's free will. Do you believe God is doing everything He can to save as many people as possible? Yes? If so, then what are you praying for? What are you asking Him to do, and how does the Open View conception of God make sense of it?Philetus said:I understand why some have a hard time grasping the concept that God answers prayer and does things for people who ask.
Wrong on both counts, Philetus. The determinist view requires God's involvement precisely because God decreed His own involvement. God is NOT restricted to a small niche of the universe precisely because He holds the entire thing together, down to the subatomic level. God is immanent; God is transcendent. In the Open View, God is neither, when taking that Luciferian theology to its logical conclusion.Philetus said:To explain away every detail of God’s involvement in the present by saying God has already determined everything, restricts God to such a small niche in the universe it virtually eliminates God from everyday involvement in one's life.
It is obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's Google time, Philetus. Please go do some research; bone up on the topics at hand, then come back so we can have an intelligent discussion, as opposed to one of desperate ignorance.Philetus said:Making God as big as one possibly can imagine only reduces Him to both uninvolved and ineffective in the present.
Where did you get that? Bob Hill?Philetus said:The God of meticulous control is a vain imagination of 'What will be ... aready is.'
Clueless.Philetus said:A God who exists in the future (sees the future as existent reality) is limited to what He can do in the present by what He sees in the future.
Really? Then what did God show John in the Revelation? A movie? A filmstrip? A flash animation, complete with sound effects and interactive clickable menus? This is the inevitable irrationality that Open Theism leads to. Denial of time. Denial of the future. Denial of space. Denial of logic. Denial of knowledge. Denial of one's Hope. Denial of the God of scripture.Philetus said:The future only exists in the hearts, minds, and imaginations of both God and man.
No, God decreed in advance. That's the point of predestination; to declare and mark out in advance, preceding the actual determined events.Philetus said:It is only in the present that those projections can become reality. God declares in the present.
To make sure? He is steering every detail in full and unflagging accordance with His meticulously determined decrees.Philetus said:God is fully and simply present here and now and is more than able to make sure that nothing escapes or derails his plan for the future.
Have you forgotten your view, Philetus. It is the "Open View," remember? That means God is NOT greater than our hearts. Men act contrary to God's ultimate plan all the time.Philetus said:God is greater than our hearts and any intention to act contrary to God's ultimate plan.
You're forgetting yourself, Philetus. The Open-View God is completely limited. He cannot overrride a man's will. He cannot mess around with people's desires. His hands are tied. He's doing everything He can, but failing miserably, as every day, scores of souls plummet into Hell, and He can not do Thing One about it. Show me that I'm wrong. Prove to me that your view can make sense of this Super Failure that you call the God of Open Theism.Philetus said:God is unlimited in the present ...
Sorry, but on your view, this simply cannot be true. God is a prisoner to man's will. Man is a free-will bully to God, and God is powerless, lest He violate His "priority attributes" of being relational, personal, loving, living and good.Philetus said:... and can choose to allow whatever he chooses to allow, and respond to the actions/prayers of creatures as God wills.
On the Open View, what's the point? He can't do anything.Philetus said:Ask what ever you will.
What does faith do? Is it like a bribe? If you lay enough faith on the table, God the Miracle Monkey snaps to attention? And to do what? Watch as the souls of those He loves and longs to save plunge into the abyss into everlasting torment and condemnation?Philetus said:It only takes a little faith.
:wave2:sentientsynth said:I'm not willing to waste any more SPACE or TIME on Dr. Brumley or Sozo.
SS
Have it your way SS. It would have been better and truer to say I don't know then to blast me with insults.sentientsynth said:Space does not exist?
Time does not exist?
I'm not going to waste any further energy debating such non-sense. If individuals are going to deny the very ncecessary preconditions for their spatiotemporal existence, then reasoning with such individuals is beyond the ability of a mere man.
Show you Biblically that time is a created thing? I already have.
Perhaps someone else will come along who is willing to concede such minor points as the existence of space-time. I'm not willing to waste any more SPACE or TIME on Dr. Brumley or Sozo.
SS
Barring Universalism, the other option is no better: God, fully capable of saving everyone, instead makes some (or many) people specifically as vessels for his wrath and intentionally sends huge numbers of sentient beings to a fate of eternal conscious torment in a place he specifically designed for that purpose.Hilston said:You're forgetting yourself, Philetus. The Open-View God is completely limited. He cannot overrride a man's will. He cannot mess around with people's desires. His hands are tied. He's doing everything He can, but failing miserably, as every day, scores of souls plummet into Hell, and He can not do Thing One about it. Show me that I'm wrong. Prove to me that your view can make sense of this Super Failure that you call the God of Open Theism.
Sure thing Hilston.Hilston said:Philetus, you're not getting this for some reason. I believe God answers prayers. I believe God does things for people who ask. It makes sense in my view. I don't see how it makes sense in yours. So please indulge me, and everyone else reading this who would really like to know: How does the Open Theist conception of God make sense of prayer. Can you pray for someone's salvation? No, because that would involve God mucking around with someone's free will. Do you believe God is doing everything He can to save as many people as possible? Yes? If so, then what are you praying for? What are you asking Him to do, and how does the Open View conception of God make sense of it?
Wrong on both counts, Philetus. The determinist view requires God's involvement precisely because God decreed His own involvement. God is NOT restricted to a small niche of the universe precisely because He holds the entire thing together, down to the subatomic level. God is immanent; God is transcendent. In the Open View, God is neither, when taking that Luciferian theology to its logical conclusion.
It is obvious that you have no idea what you're talking about. It's Google time, Philetus. Please go do some research; bone up on the topics at hand, then come back so we can have an intelligent discussion, as opposed to one of desperate ignorance.
Where did you get that? Bob Hill?
Clueless.
Really? Then what did God show John in the Revelation? A movie? A filmstrip? A flash animation, complete with sound effects and interactive clickable menus? This is the inevitable irrationality that Open Theism leads to. Denial of time. Denial of the future. Denial of space. Denial of logic. Denial of knowledge. Denial of one's Hope. Denial of the God of scripture.
No, God decreed in advance. That's the point of predestination; to declare and mark out in advance, preceding the actual determined events.
To make sure? He is steering every detail in full and unflagging accordance with His meticulously determined decrees.
Have you forgotten your view, Philetus. It is the "Open View," remember? That means God is NOT greater than our hearts. Men act contrary to God's ultimate plan all the time.
You're forgetting yourself, Philetus. The Open-View God is completely limited. He cannot overrride a man's will. He cannot mess around with people's desires. His hands are tied. He's doing everything He can, but failing miserably, as every day, scores of souls plummet into Hell, and He can not do Thing One about it. Show me that I'm wrong. Prove to me that your view can make sense of this Super Failure that you call the God of Open Theism.
Sorry, but on your view, this simply cannot be true. God is a prisoner to man's will. Man is a free-will bully to God, and God is powerless, lest He violate His "priority attributes" of being relational, personal, loving, living and good.
On the Open View, what's the point? He can't do anything.
What does faith do? Is it like a bribe? If you lay enough faith on the table, God the Miracle Monkey snaps to attention? And to do what? Watch as the souls of those He loves and longs to save plunge into the abyss into everlasting torment and condemnation?
Actually, he made some quite telling points, the lack of refutation would it seems, also indicate that.drbrumley said:Sure thing Hilston.
None of us have ever said God can lose. And omnipotence does not mean able to do things that have been made impossible, by God Himself. He cannot make a square circle.:duh:lee_merrill said:Actually, he made some quite telling points, the lack of refutation would it seems, also indicate that.
Open Theists indeed seem to try and have it both ways, with God omnipotent and also unable in various ways, with God invincible, and yet he can lose and have to change his plan...
Blessings,
Lee
Philetus said:Seekinganswers,
And the texts you use are the same and so on and so on.
I'm not taking it personal I'm just tired of having filter your experience of Process Theology from your posts.
The point I was trying to make was that just because we all use the same words doesn’t make us all the same. I guess you could find a little similarity between OT and Calvinism. We use the same texts and both talk about Jesus. We might be amused and they might be offended. Oh, well.