themuzicman
Well-known member
Sozo said:Jim...
How does a dead man hear the gospel?
I thought most people believed that you had to hear the gospel before you died. Once you're dead, you're judged, right?
Michael
Sozo said:Jim...
How does a dead man hear the gospel?
Sozo said:Jim...
How does a dead man hear the gospel?
Rob said:Then why wasn't Judas drawn like the other apostles?
So God fixed the game beforehand according to you. :rotfl:
Michael said:Huh? There's a far cry from determining the entire course of history and arranging circumstances for His purposes to come about.
RobE said:Not really. It makes God responsible for the betrayal of Judas in your theology. That's why you reject foreknowledge---responsibility.
Philetus said:Jn 11:14 “Lazarus is dead.”
Jn 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!”
Jn 11:34 “And he that was dead came forth.”
Just want to help Jim out. "Walk-ins welcome, Jim"
Walk-outs welcome, too.
Philetus
Au contrare. Your analogy shows how a person saves himself. He must grab the rope. He must hang on. He must want to live. He must believe that the rope will save him. All these things rely upon the person being saved. This undermines the Biblical analogies of one being dead, spiritually unresponsive, having dead ears unable to hear, needing to be given life, not merely resuscitated. It is the logical conclusion of your analogy. Show me I'm wrong.themuzicman said:First, I use an analogy to show how man responding to God's offer of salvation through the propitiating act of Christ isnt "saving oneself", and you go off on how the analogy doesn't fit your soteriology. Strawman #1.
The only thing you made obvious is that you're confused about the sufficiency of Christ's finished work. It really is finished, Michael. On your view, it's not. Jesus should not have said, "It is finished!" when He died, but rather, "Let's see if this works."themuzicman said:Then, after making it obvious that grabbing the rope isn't "saving yourself", and that the analogy to believing as the condition of salvation isn't "saving yourself", either, you go on to claim that Open View Theists say that "man saves himself." Strawnan #2
Sozo said:How does a dead man hear the gospel?
Since Lazarus was truly dead, how was he able to hear? What made his 4-days-dead ears function? Anyone?Philetus said:Jn 11:14 “Lazarus is dead.”
Jn 11:43 “Lazarus, come forth!”
Jn 11:34 “And he that was dead came forth.”
Hilston said:Au contrare. Your analogy shows how a person saves himself. He must grab the rope. He must hang on. He must want to live. He must believe that the rope will save him. All these things rely upon the person being saved. This undermines the Biblical analogies of one being dead, spiritually unresponsive, having dead ears unable to hear, needing to be given life, not merely resuscitated. It is the logical conclusion of your analogy. Show me I'm wrong.
The only thing you made obvious is that you're confused about the sufficiency of Christ's finished work. It really is finished, Michael. On your view, it's not. Jesus should not have said, "It is finished!" when He died, but rather, "Let's see if this works."
Since Lazarus was truly dead, how was he able to hear? What made his 4-days-dead ears function? Anyone?
Sozo said:Where does the bible claim that this story is representitive of salvation by grace through faith?
Sure it is! If you don't respond, you die. If you do respond, you're saved. You. Save. Yourself. Jesus is just a Rope.themuzicman said:OK, this is called "taking an analogy where it wasn't intended to go." The point wasn't to analogize an entire soteriology, but to demonstrate that responding to an offer of salvation from certain death isn't "saving yourself."
Sure. How about this one?themuzicman said:We can talk about what "dead" means in Eph 2:1 in another post, if you want.
No, that was mocking. Try to keep up.themuzicman said:Another strawman.
Rather stupid story, isn't it? Why would God include such an irrelevant story in the Bible? Obviously, the errors of the Open View's Trial-And-Error God extend beyond allowing people like Stalin and Bin Laden to exist. [Hint: That's mocking, too; no straw-man intended].themuzicman said:I fail to see the relevance of Lazarus being raised from the dead.
Hilston said:Sure it is! If you don't respond, you die. If you do respond, you're saved. You. Save. Yourself. Jesus is just a Rope.
Sure. How about this one?
Rather stupid story, isn't it? Why would God include such an irrelevant story in the Bible?
The Glory of the New Covenant
2 Cor. 3
7Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, fading though it was, 8will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
12Therefore, since we have such a hope, we are very bold. 13We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at it while the radiance was fading away. 14But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away. 15Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. 16But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. 18And we, who with unveiled faces all reflect (or contemplate) the Lord's glory, are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
2 Cor 4
4The God of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. 5For we do not preach ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, and ourselves as your servants for Jesus’ sake.
Hilston: Since Lazarus was truly dead, how was he able to hear? What made his 4-days-dead ears function? Anyone?
He drowns.Hilston: What's the difference between the guy who doesn't take the rope and the one who does?
Once again, you demonstrate your unique powers in being unable to get the point. The story of Lazarus has no relevance to soteriology. None.
Muz
Obviously, the errors of the Open View's Trial-And-Error God extend beyond allowing people like Stalin and Bin Laden to exist. [Hint: That's mocking, too; no straw-man intended].
Mighty, mighty monster sound,
Jas
godrulz said:Pelagius was too extreme. He was also misunderstood and misrepresented at times.
I might be sort of semi-Pelagian (?Finney).
Man cannot save himself.
themuzicman said:There's a vast difference between allowing Satan to influence someone in a particular direction (see Job), and God overriding their free will to make them do something.
Remember that when Jesus handed the bread to Judas, Satan entered into him.
Michael
RobE said::wave:
John 6:70 Then Jesus replied, "Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!" 71(He meant Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot, who, though one of the Twelve, was later to betray him.)
Was this before or after Jesus handed the bread to Judas?
Rob
Hilston said:Prove to me that your view doesn't make you your own savior. Show me the logic.
Rob said:Because Adam remained sinless on his own accord. How do you get glory from another's actions?
themuzicman said:Oh I don't know, maybe because God's teaching Adam and Eve guided them into being His people, rather than rejecting Him?
Michael said:Do you honestly think Adam and Eve would get credit for doing what they were told to do?
Lighthouse said:What about Galatians 2:20, godrulz?