glorydaz
Well-known member
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ECT Apostle, apostle, who's got the apostle!
- Thread starter musterion
- Start date
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That is an outrageous assumption to say that those who had gifts of healings and miracles died out before Paul died.
If you would like for people to believe in healing how on EARTH would your statement inspire the necessary faith?
Mebbe God will heal...depends on what mood He is in, He's finicky, He heals some people but others He leaves to suffer.
Listen up, there is one perfect example of what God's will is. Jesus.
He said "I came not do Mine own will but the will of Him who sent Me"
He healed everyone who had faith.
Nobody would preach such an unclear message to the sinner
We KNOW if they will come believing they WILL be saved...no doubt about it.
But if you preached "God saves some, mebbe you would be lucky" nobody can believe such an unclear message.
Until the church preaches healing with the exact same assurance that she preaches salvation...according to the word of promise, according to the atonement "He bore our sins, He bore our sicknesses"
It's right there in the same scripture we use to assure the sinner is the same scripture for the sickman.
It is the church at fault.
musterion
Well-known member
Trophimus calling for you from Miletus on line 1.
Lol, that line goes perfect with that picture of Tilton to its left :rotfl:
You can't take a few small fishies and pit them against an overwhelming swarm of fish...the whole weight of the bible is for healing as part of salvation.
Paul taught that we have been redeemed from the curse of the law...have YOU? if you want to know what the curse of the law is read Leviticus.
Some people fall into sin...some even who followed Paul...is it God's will?
Shall we say then it is God's will for some to fall into sin? or that it is not His will to restore them?
Do you wonder that so few people get healed ...it is YOU you are there whispering Trophimus in their ear
Why don't you whisper Malta?...the whole population was healed by Paul's ministry.
Paul taught that we have been redeemed from the curse of the law...have YOU? if you want to know what the curse of the law is read Leviticus.
Some people fall into sin...some even who followed Paul...is it God's will?
Shall we say then it is God's will for some to fall into sin? or that it is not His will to restore them?
Do you wonder that so few people get healed ...it is YOU you are there whispering Trophimus in their ear
Why don't you whisper Malta?...the whole population was healed by Paul's ministry.
It's the church's fault, YOUR fault, you throw cold water on faith every time the matter of healing comes up.
glorydaz
Well-known member
Now see there. You're talking about something else entirely. As far as healing today (physical healing) the point is that there are no "healers" today. If there were healers today...people would be lined up for miles beating on the healer's door and we would see healings being performed on national news. It would be a huge news story. What we do see is a lot of claims being made without any legitimate documentation.
We can certainly pray for healing and God hears our prayers and heals or not as He sees fit.
Yes I do, What about the man at Corinth who sinned? was that God's will? was he restored?
People fall sick, people fall into sin, neither is God's will see.
Epaphroditus was sick to but he was healed, how do you know Trophimus wasn't?
You can't take a few examples and make a doctrine out of it, you have to go by what God says and by the whole weight of bible testimony.
You just do not know what is going on in other continents of the world, nor do you know much about Pentecostal history...for that is exactly what happens.
It even used to happen in America a few decades back...what do you think Asuza was all about?
I was healed but I have no documentation...the doctors won't say...you cain't prove Jesus healed anyone or Peter or Paul
musterion
Well-known member
And? Why did Paul leave behind a loyal friend sick? In the years prior people were fully healed and exorcized by simply touching hankies and aprons that had touched him. What happened? Faith, or lack of it, was not the issue. Why do you think Paul couldn't heal Trophimus?
Which man? Chapter and verse, please.
The point is healing, Tot. Stay focused.
Paul would have said so. God told us it didn't happen for a reason.
You also can't ignore a few glaring examples that contradict what you want to believe, either. By the end of his life, ALL the sign gifts had served their purpose - as a witness of condemnation, judgment and also grace TO ISRAEL - and then were withdrawn.
musterion
Well-known member
So sad how pentecostals have been reduced to blaming American Christians for the pentecostals' lack of miracles..."It's not our fault we can't heal you like Paul did, it's YOUR fault cuz you won't believe!" So sad that you claim these miracles still happen in abundance today but always in some foreign land where, doggone it, they just never get captured on video or on someone's cell phone.
If 1/100th the Youtube videos of charismatic revivals and services contained even ONE indisputable miracle EACH, there'd be very few people who did not believe what you say is true. We'd all be pentecostals.
Personally, I'm convinced it was demons.
I was healed once, too. But no other human was with me, or even knew about it. God did it directly, instantly and completely. I believe it was to show me that He can still do it when He chooses to do so. No one here is saying healing can't happen. The issue is human healers. That is really the only place we disagree, Tot.
These signs follow them that believe--
Mar 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
Mar 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
Mar 16:17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;
Mar 16:18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.
LA
musterion
Well-known member
You've been asked before to post video proof that those signs follow you. You won't cuz they don't. Because you lie.
Livelystone
New member
Part of the problem with healing is solved when people realize it is never the person doing the healing but instead is God administering a miracle to the person in need
People who received 'gifts of healing needed a "gift of healing" and so on
Even Jesus said it was not Him who did the works because it was His Father doing them
When it says the "shadow" of the apostles healed the sick as they walked by them......... their "shadow" was the Holy Spirit within them that because of their knowledge of the truth was considerably greater making the HS in them more in line and in harmony with God on the throne than the Holy Spirit found in the average believer today knows about the truth.
What is the difference between the Holy Spirit in the Apostles versus what is in Christians today? They had all of the truth that the church today has for the most part departed from other that the basic "Jesus died for our sins" first taught to Christians in Sunday School
We all start out with the same measure of faith that is Christ the seed. However, seeds cannot bring forth anywhere near what a fully mature tree coming from the Christ the seed in us can can cause to come forth.
The apostles were on one accord with the truth of what matters versus the tens of thousands different fractions of Christianity today all with their own brand of what they think the truth is.
People who received 'gifts of healing needed a "gift of healing" and so on
Even Jesus said it was not Him who did the works because it was His Father doing them
When it says the "shadow" of the apostles healed the sick as they walked by them......... their "shadow" was the Holy Spirit within them that because of their knowledge of the truth was considerably greater making the HS in them more in line and in harmony with God on the throne than the Holy Spirit found in the average believer today knows about the truth.
What is the difference between the Holy Spirit in the Apostles versus what is in Christians today? They had all of the truth that the church today has for the most part departed from other that the basic "Jesus died for our sins" first taught to Christians in Sunday School
We all start out with the same measure of faith that is Christ the seed. However, seeds cannot bring forth anywhere near what a fully mature tree coming from the Christ the seed in us can can cause to come forth.
The apostles were on one accord with the truth of what matters versus the tens of thousands different fractions of Christianity today all with their own brand of what they think the truth is.
You are looking in the wrong place...turn that telly OFF, the Pentecostal movement is hardly represented there...you might tune into Joseph Prince
It is true that in the west the Pentecostal movement has gone the way of all revivals, so much bad stuff has been allowed to creep in....why does that surprise anyone?
Paul had barely left Galatia before the bad guys moved in, Paul spent so much time in Ephesus but he told them as soon as he was gone false prophets would arise from among them not sparing the sheep
Pentecostalism may have waned in the west but the Holy Ghost is moving in China brother in the same old mighty way.
Mao ze Dong declared Christianity dead and buried, but there MORE evangelical Christians today in China than in America.
I said it's the church's fault, because we are too lazy good for nothing in the west...days are coming upon us brother, this kind of unbelief comes with a price tag.
Glorydaz said it, she said if there were people with the gift of healing in the church today people would be banging on the church's door to get in.
She never said a truer word. They did with Jesus didn't they, they did with the apostles didn't they.
They happen wherever people believe...that is what you are fighting against...the faith to believe...you can't spend your life spouting unbelief and then demand to see miracles
People even disbelieved Jesu's miracle
Yes you were healed once...you caught God on a good day, or perhaps He saw something pleasing in you and made a special effort.
He shore is moody that way
People turned back to sin right there under Paul's nose, they loved the world better. The flesh is frail, the mind of the flesh is wayward.
But God's word remains the same to all generations, the failure is not with God
YOU SAY THE FAILURE IS GOD, it's not His will or something, He has to be in the right mood, He loves some cancer sufferers more than others...I don't know what you are saying...but I know you are not inspiring faith but unbelief in the matter of healing.
Apostleship usually means a witness of Jesus Christ for the purpose of the crafting of the NT Bible. This includes Jesus' direct disciples (the 12 minus Judas Iscariot), His other direct followers, prophets called to the same witnessing purpose such as Paul.
However we shouldn't be able to find a verse to say that God won't send apostles, either. In the end, it's God's business. However it makes more sense for the prophets to be sent instead of the apostles. Prophets are mentioned in the Book of Revelation but not apostles. However, in the end it's God's business.
However we shouldn't be able to find a verse to say that God won't send apostles, either. In the end, it's God's business. However it makes more sense for the prophets to be sent instead of the apostles. Prophets are mentioned in the Book of Revelation but not apostles. However, in the end it's God's business.
1. It's in scripture.
Ephesians 4:10-12 New King James Version (NKJV)
10 He who descended is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,
2. It will be seen because the Spirit gives the gift.
1 Corinthians 12:7-10 New King James Version (NKJV)
7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to each one for the profit of all: 8 for to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, to another the word of knowledge through the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healings by the same[a] Spirit, 10 to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another discerning of spirits, to another different kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues.
3. Too numerous to list in a single post. Start another thread. However the answers can be found in "The Church in the New Testament" by Kevin J. Conner
4.False Apostles and prophets are not false because they claim to be apostles but because they bring false doctrine.
2 Corinthians 11:12-14 New King James Version (NKJV)
12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light.
5. No.