ECT Anti-ES is humanism

[Lazy afternoon]

Also---

Mat 13:3 And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow;
Mat 13:4 And when he sowed, some seeds fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up:
Mat 13:5 Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth:
Mat 13:6 And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
Mat 13:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them:
Mat 13:8 But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold.
Mat 13:9 Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.
Mat 13:10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
Mat 13:11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
Mat 13:12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.

Mat 13:18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower.
Mat 13:19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side.
Mat 13:20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it;
Mat 13:21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.
Mat 13:22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful.
Mat 13:23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

Did not all of those believe?

That is the reason for the example of Judas who believed but did not surrender his heart to the supremacy of Gods word to him.

LA

 

[journey]

Sounds like someone who quit his membership in the Body of Christ (1Jn 3:15).

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Jesus explains why people seemingly quit their membership in the Body of Christ in Mark 4:13-20.

The parable of the Olive Tree is not talking about an individual, rather a people. The Jews enjoyed a special privilege and lost it as a people - not individuals. The Jews were the natural olive branch. The Gentiles then received that special privilege as a people - the wild olive branch. Romans 11:22 is not talking about an individual believer - member of the Body of Christ. That special privilege was favored-nation status - not specific individuals.

 

[Cross Reference]

You discount God's soverign choice to give free will. Why would He do this? Free love and worship in response to His love and grace. Forced worship and love bring Him no glory or love that He desires to share with us.

Our freewill is of the "breath of life" that established our soul. Man is never without it unless turned over to a reprobate condition, without remedy [reversal]. . . . . and that by God's doing!

 

[Lazy afternoon]

The parable of the Olive Tree is not talking about an individual, rather a people. The Jews enjoyed a special privilege and lost it as a people - not individuals. The Jews were the natural olive branch. The Gentiles then received that special privilege as a people - the wild olive branch. Romans 11:22 is not talking about an individual believer - member of the Body of Christ. That special privilege was favored-nation status - not specific individuals.

That is plainly incorrect.

Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.
Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

LA

 

[glorydaz]

If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.

Right you are. Is God able to perform what He began in us or not?

Are we so arrogant that we think we must help Him out? That He is not able to keep us? Only a humanist would put his confidence in his own staying power, rather than the ONE who is doing the good work He began when He purchased us and sealed us with His Spirit.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

 

[glorydaz]

You discount God's soverign choice to give free will. Why would He do this? Free love and worship in response to His love and grace. Forced worship and love bring Him no glory or love that He desires to share with us.

I guess you don't know that we don't need to be forced. We are new creatures.....created in HIM.

He gives us, not only the strength and the ability to do His good pleasure, but the DESIRE as well.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

We don't get a choice about whether or not we receive the Love of God that is shed abroad on our hearts by the Holy Spirit.....it comes with being adopted sons of God.

Romans 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.​

 

[Dialogos]

Right you are. Is God able to perform what He began in us or not?

Are we so arrogant that we think we must help Him out? That He is not able to keep us? Only a humanist would put his confidence in his own staying power, rather than the ONE who is doing the good work He began when He purchased us and sealed us with His Spirit.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

Absolutely.

Incidentally, God doesn't need our help in saving us either.

 

[glorydaz]

Absolutely.

Incidentally, God doesn't need our help in saving us either.

Right....thanks for adding that very important point. :thumb:

He persuades us, and when we are persuaded, we believe and He saves us.

 

[patrick jane]

Romans 8:38, 39 KJV -

 

[Cross Reference]

Right....thanks for adding that very important point. :thumb:

He persuades us, and when we are persuaded, we believe and He saves us.

WRONG! Lets get it correctly sorted out: God didn't need our help in His "redeeming" all of mankind!

[Believing] for redemption is a choice by man that brings Salvation!

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth[orders his life to be found] in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." John 3:16 (KJV) "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God." Romans 8:14 (KJV)


[Emphasis mine]

 

[Cross Reference]

Right you are. Is God able to perform what He began in us or not?

Are we so arrogant that we think we must help Him out? That He is not able to keep us? Only a humanist would put his confidence in his own staying power, rather than the ONE who is doing the good work He began when He purchased us and sealed us with His Spirit.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:​

"IF", dazed! "IF" you continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, . . . . . "Colossians 1:23 (KJV)

When are you going to learn that the salvation you preach renders Jesus Christ of no value after one recites a sinners prayer??

Here, from today Oswald Chambers devotional Thread:

"Guard jealously your relationship to God. Jesus prayed “that they may be one, even as We are one”—nothing between. Keep all the life perennially open to Jesus Christ, don’t pretend with Him. Are you drawing your life from any other source than God Himself? If you are depending upon anything but Him, you will never know when He is gone.

Being born of the Spirit means much more than we generally take it to mean. It gives us a new vision and keeps us absolutely fresh for everything by the perennial supply of the life of God"

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

Right....thanks for adding that very important point. :thumb:

He persuades us, and when we are persuaded, we believe and He saves us.

Do we have to love God, in response to His love? Is that a free choice or forced? Its one or the other.

How does He save us?

1. His blood by grace. We seek forgiveness(free choice) He cleans us, reconciles us to Himself.


2. His Spirit. He transforms us, He empowers us, it is a maturation process. We submit, go to Him, desire Him (free choice) in prayer, worship, His word, discipleship.

We play a part, but we do nothing apart from His loving kindness and grace, but we most certainly choose to do what He wants us to do or we choose not to.

Do I want to boast about myself? No! I'm boasting of Him, freely, because I love Him! Love is the while reason for free will. C'mon how exciting would it be for drones to worship Him on command? He wants real love freely given. That's part of what madeJesus So awesome. He laid down His life freely, Our Father didn't force Him.

Wake up people we are not trying to steal your Jesus, we're trying to get you to see He wants to go so much deeper with you and He is waiting for you to move.

It's the Satan himself who wants you to rest easy and take Him for granted. Is that how you want anyone to treat you?

 

[Cross Reference]

Do we have to love God, in response to His love? Is that a free choice or forced? Its one or the other.

How does He save us?

1. His blood by grace. We seek forgiveness(free choice) He cleans us, reconciles us to Himself.


2. His Spirit. He transforms us, He empowers us, it is a maturation process. We submit, go to Him, desire Him (free choice) in prayer, worship, His word, discipleship.

We play a part, but we do nothing apart from His loving kindness and grace, but we most certainly choose to do what He wants us to do or we choose not to.

Do I want to boast about myself? No! I'm boasting of Him, freely, because I love Him! Love is the while reason for free will. C'mon how exciting would it be for drones to worship Him on command? He wants real love freely given. That's part of what madeJesus So awesome. He laid down His life freely, Our Father didn't force Him.

Wake up people we are not trying to steal your Jesus, we're trying to get you to see He wants to go so much deeper with you and He is waiting for you to move.

It's the Satan himself who wants you to rest easy and take Him for granted. Is that how you want anyone to treat you?

Amen!! Except for this I believe you missed as just another act of our freewill:

2. His Spirit. He transforms us . . .

[We, by our new birth; new born love TO Him, transform ourselves by the continual "renewing of our mind" per Rom.12:2 that, in His timing, have been made ready for His "visitation" for any occasion set in Him predestined for us to fulfill [John 17:21-23 KJV]. Because we have *chosen wisely, He is able to empower us; trust us with handling His glory . . All this by our freewill in trusting Him]. .

. . . .He empowers us, it is a maturation process. We submit, go to Him, desire Him (free choice) in prayer, worship, His word, discipleship.

Again, Amen!!

*Prayed our way through

 

[elohiym]

Sounds like someone who quit his membership in the Body of Christ (1Jn 3:15).

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Jesus explains why people seemingly quit their membership in the Body of Christ in Mark 4:13-20.

The parable of the Olive Tree is not talking about an individual, rather a people. The Jews enjoyed a special privilege and lost it as a people - not individuals. The Jews were the natural olive branch. The Gentiles then received that special privilege as a people - the wild olive branch. Romans 11:22 is not talking about an individual believer - member of the Body of Christ. That special privilege was favored-nation status - not specific individuals.

The parable of the Olive Tree is from Jeremiah 11:16 and it is figurative of Judah. "Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem..." (v. 6). I can agree that in Jeremiah 11:16, the prophet is referring figuratively to the people of Judah. I believe that Judah/the Olive Tree is also representative of Christ, the Lion of Judah. It is written: "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet ..."

It is my understanding that Paul is using the figure from Jeremiah 11:16 to describe God's people, those who are Jews (natural branches) and those who are Gentiles (wild branches grafted in). He writes of the holy root, which must be Christ. It is written: "I am the Root and the Offspring of David..." and "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope."

In the parable of the sower we can see it's possible to believe and then fall away. Paul is basically saying the same thing in Romans 11:22. Neither of those facts diminish the truth of Mark 4:20 that reflects a genuine type of eternal security: "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." The ones in Mark 4:20 never fall away.

 

[journey]

The parable of the Olive Tree is from Jeremiah 11:16 and it is figurative of Judah. "Proclaim all these words in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem..." (v. 6). I can agree that in Jeremiah 11:16, the prophet is referring figuratively to the people of Judah. I believe that Judah/the Olive Tree is also representative of Christ, the Lion of Judah. It is written: "The scepter shall not depart from Judah, Nor the ruler's staff from between his feet ..."

It is my understanding that Paul is using the figure from Jeremiah 11:16 to describe God's people, those who are Jews (natural branches) and those who are Gentiles (wild branches grafted in). He writes of the holy root, which must be Christ. It is written: "I am the Root and the Offspring of David..." and "The Root of Jesse will spring up, one who will arise to rule over the nations; in him the Gentiles will hope."

In the parable of the sower we can see it's possible to believe and then fall away. Paul is basically saying the same thing in Romans 11:22. Neither of those facts diminish the truth of Mark 4:20 that reflects a genuine type of eternal security: "And those are the ones on whom seed was sown on the good soil; and they hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirty, sixty, and a hundredfold." The ones in Mark 4:20 never fall away.

We can agree to disagree. Romans 11:22 was not talking about an individual believer - member of the Body of Christ.

 

[glorydaz]

Do we have to love God, in response to His love? Is that a free choice or forced? Its one or the other.

We don't HAVE to love God. It comes with the gift of salvation. We love Him because He first loved us. When we believed, the love of God was shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit. Which means He freely gave us the love with which we love Him. Romans 5:5

How does He save us?

1. His blood by grace. We seek forgiveness(free choice) He cleans us, reconciles us to Himself.


2. His Spirit. He transforms us, He empowers us, it is a maturation process. We submit, go to Him, desire Him (free choice) in prayer, worship, His word, discipleship.

We play a part, but we do nothing apart from His loving kindness and grace, but we most certainly choose to do what He wants us to do or we choose not to.

I see that as God's work in us. He gives us the desire (the will) and the ability to do His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

The only thing we do is allow it come out where it can be seen. What gets in the way of that is our assuming we play some other part. Just as you contradict yourself in the yellow above, you can get in God's way by insisting you have to choose to desire Him or you can refuse to submit to Him. No believer has any desire to refuse to submit. We may have to learn many things, but choosing to love Him or desire His good pleasure has been given us already.

Do I want to boast about myself? No! I'm boasting of Him, freely, because I love Him! Love is the while reason for free will. C'mon how exciting would it be for drones to worship Him on command? He wants real love freely given. That's part of what madeJesus So awesome. He laid down His life freely, Our Father didn't force Him.

You are boasting, though. He shed His love abroad on your heart and you boast of loving Him. We aren't drones....we're just back where He created us to be. Reliant on Him for all good things.

Wake up people we are not trying to steal your Jesus, we're trying to get you to see He wants to go so much deeper with you and He is waiting for you to move.

:chuckle:

It's the Satan himself who wants you to rest easy and take Him for granted. Is that how you want anyone to treat you?

Trusting in the Lord is not taking Him for granted. Satan is the one who wants you to think you need to perform what only God can do.

 

[Cross Reference]

We don't HAVE to love God. It comes with the gift of salvation. We love Him because He first loved us. When we believed, the love of God was shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit. Which means He freely gave us the love with which we love Him. Romans 5:5



I see that as God's work in us. He gives us the desire (the will) and the ability to do His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

The only thing we do is allow it come out where it can be seen. What gets in the way of that is our assuming we play some other part. Just as you contradict yourself in the yellow above, you can get in God's way by insisting you have to choose to desire Him or you can refuse to submit to Him. No believer has any desire to refuse to submit. We may have to learn many things, but choosing to love Him or desire His good pleasure has been given us already.





You are boasting, though. He shed His love abroad on your heart and you boast of loving Him. We aren't drones....we're just back where He created us to be. Reliant on Him for all good things.



:chuckle:



Trusting in the Lord is not taking Him for granted. Satan is the one who wants you to think you need to perform what only God can do.

______________________________________________


We, by our new birth; new born love TO Him, are given to transform ourselves by the continual "renewing of our mind" per Rom.12:2 that, in His timing, have been made ready for His "visitation" for any occasion set in Him predestined for us to fulfill [John 17:21-23 KJV]. Because we have chosen wisely, He is able to empower us; trust us with handling His glory . . All this by our freewill in trusting Him by our new birth which is the beginning of our life's journey Home; the END of God's will for us.. .

To Jamie,

Dazed can :chuckle: all she wants but, she can't hide her distain for those who Love God.

Her whole 'schpeal' is a lie from the pit designed to move us away from Jesus:

"Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; . . . . . . I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love." Revelation 2:1-4 (KJV)

Note the efforts expended by the Christians at Ephesus, their "works", their "Labors", their "patience" . . . while always retaining the freewill to leave their way in the Lord.

This should suffice for any rational thinker to conclude the preciousness of the command of Jesus to "Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength". The result of this one, all encompassing great commandment is, God gives us the capacity to love others. He gives us His sustaining Life.

 

[glorydaz]

Dazed can :chuckle: all she wants but, she can't hide her distain for those who Love God.

Her whole 'schpeal' is a lie from the pit designed to move us away from Jesus:

I have no "distain" for those who love God....only for cross little boys who pretend they know God. :chuckle:

 

[Jamie Gigliotti]

We don't HAVE to love God. It comes with the gift of salvation. We love Him because He first loved us. When we believed, the love of God was shed abroad on our heart by the Holy Spirit. Which means He freely gave us the love with which we love Him. Romans 5:5



I see that as God's work in us. He gives us the desire (the will) and the ability to do His good pleasure.

Philippians 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.​

The only thing we do is allow it come out where it can be seen. What gets in the way of that is our assuming we play some other part. Just as you contradict yourself in the yellow above, you can get in God's way by insisting you have to choose to desire Him or you can refuse to submit to Him. No believer has any desire to refuse to submit. We may have to learn many things, but choosing to love Him or desire His good pleasure has been given us already.





You are boasting, though. He shed His love abroad on your heart and you boast of loving Him. We aren't drones....we're just back where He created us to be. Reliant on Him for all good things.



:chuckle:



Trusting in the Lord is not taking Him for granted. Satan is the one who wants you to think you need to perform what only God can do.

You are contradicting yourself. Relying on Him, trusting is something we do by freewill. It is praying, worshipping, feeding on His word. He gets the glory because He convicts and empowers, we get the reward because we choose to. He wants lovers of Himself, freely chosen.

 

[elohiym]

We can agree to disagree.

Thank you. I agree with that. :e4e: