ECT Anti-ES is humanism

musterion

Well-known member
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.
 

OCTOBER23

New member
Musterion said,

If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake of fire.

You say that technically, human will and choice can and will defeat God

NO , God gives man a Choice to Stay in Christ or NOT.
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Joh 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Joh 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me
I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth,
there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation,
which shall devour the adversaries.


Re 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life
was cast into the lake of fire.

Heb 10:31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
 
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Cross Reference

New member
Musterion said,

If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake of fire.
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Which scripture are you using for this ?

He is not making a statement. You not quoting all of him.
 

turbosixx

New member
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.

What would be a more effective scheme of Satan?

A. If a Christian’s works and sins count nothing towards remaining in Christ, would it benefit Satan to encourage Christians to be pleasing to God?
1 Finally then, brethren, we request and exhort you in the Lord Jesus, that as you received from us instruction as to how you ought to walk and please God (just as you actually do walk), that you excel still more. 2 For you know what commandments we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus.

B. If a Christian’s works and sins do determine whether Christ allows them to remain in Him, then it would benefit Satan to encourage OSAS.
22 yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard,
 
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Cross Reference

New member
Neither were reprobates. They MIGHT have been saved but God...you know...didn't wanna.
How can that be when God is the One who turns one over to a "reprobate" disposition? To be reprobate is one made by decree that even God can't reverse. This as opposed to be being saved and remaining so which is NOT by decree but by one's own faith.
 

Interplanner

Well-known member
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.



You sound right, but 'if we deny him, he will deny us.' There is one thing that we must believe to be justified, and that is that we stand in need of it. As long as history goes on, mankind will be tempted to believe that he does not need it, and will stand or fall on that.
 

patrick jane

BANNED
Banned
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.

What of a man in Christ who decides one day to kill his wife and children and then himself, is he still sealed and saved ?
 

Cross Reference

New member
You sound right, but 'if we deny him, he will deny us.' There is one thing that we must believe to be justified, and that is that we stand in need of it. As long as history goes on, mankind will be tempted to believe that he does not need it, and will stand or fall on that.

But that is what preachers are for, isn't it.
 

elohiym

Well-known member
If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God.

You may as well have written, "If anti-Calvinism is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God."

Do you have the liberty to quit your membership in the Body of Christ?
 

elohiym

Well-known member
What of a man in Christ who decides one day to kill his wife and children and then himself, is he still sealed and saved ?

Sounds like someone who quit his membership in the Body of Christ (1Jn 3:15).

Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

Jesus explains why people seemingly quit their membership in the Body of Christ in Mark 4:13-20.
 

Cross Reference

New member
Do you mean to preach to people the reminder that they must stay in faith, like a spouse must stay faith-ful?

No. The message is for the righteous that they know peace has been made with God in their behalf by Jesus Christ. Should their question be, "Who is Jesus Christ?" then it is also the responsibility of the preacher to explain Him.

Understand it now?? Jesus said: "Go and make disciples. . . to ME".
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.


Many believe before they are sealed, but MAD says men are sealed when they first believe, so that lie causes many unsealed to think they can continue to sin and never be lost.

Exhibit A-

2 Peter ch 2.

2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
2Pe 2:2 And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
2Pe 2:3 And through covetousness shall they with feigned words make merchandise of you: whose judgment now of a long time lingereth not, and their damnation slumbereth not.
2Pe 2:4 For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;
2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;
2Pe 2:6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;
2Pe 2:7 And delivered just Lot, vexed with the filthy conversation of the wicked:
2Pe 2:8 (For that righteous man dwelling among them, in seeing and hearing, vexed his righteous soul from day to day with their unlawful deeds;)
2Pe 2:9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
2Pe 2:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.
2Pe 2:11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.
2Pe 2:12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;
2Pe 2:13 And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;
2Pe 2:14 Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls: an heart they have exercised with covetous practices; cursed children:
2Pe 2:15 Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;
2Pe 2:16 But was rebuked for his iniquity: the dumb *** speaking with man's voice forbad the madness of the prophet.
2Pe 2:17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
2Pe 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
2Pe 2:19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
2Pe 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
2Pe 2:22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


Exhibit B--

John W.
 

Lazy afternoon

LIFETIME MEMBER
LIFETIME MEMBER
You slander Peter by falsely making him call Paul a liar.

Rom 8:16

2 Cor 1:22

2 Cor 5:5

Eph 1:14

Eph 4:30

Rom 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

That is not the sealing. That is receiving.


2Co 1:21 Now he which stablisheth us with you in Christ, and hath anointed us, is God;
2Co 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

That speaks of Paul and company as far as the sealing goes.

2Co 5:5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


Us, is not you.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.


The verses says they were sealed AFTER they believed.

Was Simon sealed when he believed?

Act 8:9 But there was a certain man, called Simon, which beforetime in the same city used sorcery, and bewitched the people of Samaria, giving out that himself was some great one:
Act 8:10 To whom they all gave heed, from the least to the greatest, saying, This man is the great power of God.
Act 8:11 And to him they had regard, because that of long time he had bewitched them with sorceries.
Act 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.
Act 8:13 Then Simon himself believed also: and when he was baptized, he continued with Philip, and wondered, beholding the miracles and signs which were done.

Act 8:18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
Act 8:19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
Act 8:20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.
Act 8:21 Thou hast neither part nor lot in this matter: for thy heart is not right in the sight of God.
Act 8:22 Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee.
Act 8:23 For I perceive that thou art in the gall of bitterness, and in the bond of iniquity.


Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.


Spoken to those who are sealed.

There is nothing definitive in all of your verses to say one is sealed at the believing of the gospel.

There are many verses which show believing occurs before being sealed where sealing is sometimes a very long time after first believing.

One man I know was not sealed until after some 40 years of believing.

Only two of those who came out of Egypt were sealed after believing.

That does not mean all the unsealed are headed to hell, though some are, only that the last judgment will decide their future.


Rev 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.



Eze 9:4 And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.
Eze 9:5 And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity:
Eze 9:6 Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house.
Eze 9:7 And he said unto them, Defile the house, and fill the courts with the slain: go ye forth. And they went forth, and slew in the city.


Rev 7:3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

They were servants before they were sealed.


complies with--

Mat 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.
Mat 24:43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.
Mat 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24:45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?
Mat 24:46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
Mat 24:47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.
Mat 24:48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;
Mat 24:49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;
Mat 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,
Mat 24:51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint him his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Cherry picking verses with sealed in them, reveals little understanding of Gods word.

LA
 

Jamie Gigliotti

New member
If Christ can lose any of those who become members of His Body when some of them sin away their salvation and are cast into the Lake (as CrossReference, LA and several others insist will happen), then He's a weak loser and a liar. So is the Father and so is His Spirit.

*The Son buys with His blood, but that payment is cancelled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Father justifies, but that justification is canceled by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

*The Holy Spirit seals, but that seal is broken by someone who decides not to stay saved anymore.

If anti-ES is correct, human will and choice can and will defeat God. It's humanism disguised and preached by wolves. Its blasphemous exaltation of Man is no different from that of atheists. It is of Satan.

You discount God's soverign choice to give free will. Why would He do this? Free love and worship in response to His love and grace. Forced worship and love bring Him no glory or love that He desires to share with us.
 
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