Anti-Christ Spirit of Spiritual Death Exposed

[Jerry Shugart]

I don't condemn you for being stuck in the landscape of illusion but sooner or later you must enter 1 John 4:18.

Let us look at the next chapter of the epistle which you mentioned and we can see a verse that also demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God:

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

That speaks for itself. I see no evidence that what John writes here is just an illusion.

 

[Jerry Shugart]

So you also say that "Jesus is YHWH"? Because that is the position of Jerry and Evil. And if you also say that the Father is His own Son...

Let us look at the way the Lord Jesus used the word "Father" when speaking to unbelievers:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it" (Jn.8:44).​

The Lord Jesus was not saying that their real father was actually the devil. Instead, he was saying that their "nature" is that of the devil.

When the Lord Jesus told the Jews that God was His Father they knew that He was claiming to be God:

"But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work. Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God" (Jn.5:17-18).​

If this was just a misunderstanding and the Lord Jesus is not equal to God then there can be no doubt that He would have cleared up this misunderstanding and said that He was not claiming to be God. However, what He told them made it plain that He was claiming to be God.

First, He told them that He had the same power to raise up the dead as does the Father (v.21). He then said that all judgment has been committed to Him (v.22). Then He told them this:

"That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him" (Jn.5:23).​

There can be absolutely no doubt that by those words the Lord Jesus was confirming the Jews' idea that He was making Himself equal to God. And there is no reason at all why He would say those things unless He is God.

 

[Lon]

The red flag in the historical assumption is the shadow of the letter can awaken the second born in man, which you wrongly interpreted as literal history which has no merit in the timeless kingdom of God, you live in baby lon as a willing host for that parasite of false fictional love that mocks Divine love.

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Again, unless you've read the whole thing, you've no comment worth the internet it is printed upon. Take the challenge. -Lon

 

[daqq]

There is no ambiguity about the verses which I quoted or in regard to the comments which I made about them. Here we see God describing himself as the "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end":

"And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son" (Rev.21:6-7).​

The following verses reveal that Jesus Christ is the "Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end":

"And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last" (Rev.22:12-13).​

It is the Lord Jesus who is said to be coming quickly:

"He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus" (Rev.22:12-13).
​

There can be no doubt that since there can only be ONE "Alpha and Omega, the beginning and end" then the Lord Jesus is God.

All you prove is the fact that you are unable to deal with these verses as they are written. If you have a point to make about these verses then let's hear it.

By the way, in your spamming you continue to misquote Rev 22:20 as if it was Rev 22:12-13. Please fix it so that at least the next hundred times you post it you will have the correct scripture reference following the verse.

 

[daqq]

Yes, it is a direct quote.
The angel, one of the seven, from 21:9

Going back to the original message and giving the direct quote of God, not the angel here.

Not all, but why this approach? Wasn't his point that the angel was delivering the Alpha and Omega's message? I think I agree with him, that your point would be better made simply to out-with-it. You are actually getting in the way of any message of note or worth at this point. Is this about you or Him? There is no clever gotcha moment in this discussion. Why shoot for one?

So then you disagree with Evil and JS? That is not all "the Lord Jesus Christ" speaking throughout the entire passage I quoted? That is the reason I quoted it. It is you then who is getting in the way of getting to the bottom of these things. Also please go back and review the thread: the entire foundation from the OP for this thread is based against words of my own from another thread which are quoted in the OP. It is you who is placing yourself as some sort of thread arbitrator, yet again, and yet this entire thread is directed against me and my words, including the title. If anyone needs to remove himself it is you.

 

[daqq]

By the way, Lon, you also are now playing a Modalist shell game; for you say it is definitely Jesus speaking at the start of what I quoted. Then, when John bows to worship Jesus, you say it is an angel that tells him not to do so. Then after that you change hats right back to saying it is Jesus speaking again.

Oh the tangled webs you three are willing to weave for the sake of your dogmas. :chuckle:

 

[meshak]

So you also say that "Jesus is YHWH"?

Of course he does.

That's the doctrine of mainstream or trins'.

 

[Zeke]

Let us look at the next chapter of the epistle which you mentioned and we can see a verse that also demonstrates that the Lord Jesus is God:

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

That speaks for itself. I see no evidence that what John writes here is just an illusion.

But where does the Spirit come is the point, Luke 17:20-21 shows the location of God's kingdom the storyline through out scripture is about the struggle of our dual nature told in allegories Galatians 4:24 that were never meant to be taken historical because all that does is cause division 2cor 3:6.

So you also say that "Jesus is YHWH"? Because that is the position of Jerry and Evil. And if you also say that the Father is His own Son, and the Son is the Father, and YHWH is your brother, (as Evil has already openly stated), then you need to step up and answer the question too because you are now joining yourself to their blasphemy and adding your voice to further it. My question to them was as clear as it can be, and as anyone may see they refused to openly answer it in truth, and truth be told, Jerry already admitted it. He has essentially admitted that all those words are spoken by the Son of Elohim. Therefore Jerry, and the OP Evil, and you also Lon, openly deny, reject, and attempt to subvert a direct commandment from the Son of Elohim not to worship him but to instead worship Elohim, (Revelation 22:9). You three are anathema because you do not actually believe the Testimony of Messiah and, in fact, try to subvert it, nor do what he says to do even though you claim to be his followers and claim to speak for him in your teachings, (Luke 6:46). Yes, the whole three lot of you are heretics, blasphemers, and anathema. :chuckle:

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[Zeke]

Again, unless you've read the whole thing, you've no comment worth the internet it is printed upon. Take the challenge. -Lon

Why bother making assumptions about things you have no clue about, like my reading habits. Plus you can read it 100 times and still miss the pearls because you read through a glass darkly.

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[daqq]

Of course he does.

That's the doctrine of mainstream or trins'.

I dunno, it seems now-a-days, with two billion+ beleeevers globally, there seem to be about two billion+ differing versions of the Trinity: yet if you say you do not agree you are the heretic. It might even be true that if I said I was a full blown Trinitarian, while still believing what I do right now, (because most do not understand what I believe anyway), I might just actually be accepted into the club simply on the basis that I made the claim, (like most of the modern Oneness-Modalists around here are already doing). My view could be just one more out of two billion+ different versions of the Trinity, (I've even heard some call their version the Twinity, lol). But that is precisely why Trinitarianism is imploding; and who would want to jump on board the Trinitanic when the stern is already at 45 degrees, risen up into the cold midnight sky, as the bow slips under the icy waters?

 

[Lon]

Why bother making assumptions about things you have no clue about, like my reading habits. Plus you can read it 100 times and still miss the pearls because you read through a glass darkly.

Of course I'm making assumptions. The book molds us, we do not mold the book. Read it.

 

[Lon]

So you also say that "Jesus is YHWH"? Because that is the position of Jerry and Evil. ...you need to step up and answer the question too .... the Son of Elohim.

As per the trinity doctrine, simply go the creeds. There are not a billion or even a hundred different trinity doctrines. There ARE laymen who haven't read the creeds or gone through triune scriptures. I'm okay with an emerging grasp of triune doctrine. I'm not okay with adverse (hetero, heretical) doctrine. The difference is who is trying to espouse the scriptures, and who is damaging scriptures of willful purpose. Understand? (more on those scriptures below)

Therefore Jerry, and the OP Evil, and you also Lon, openly deny, reject, and attempt to subvert a direct commandment from the Son of Elohim not to worship him but to instead worship Elohim, (Revelation 22:9). You three are anathema because you do not actually believe the Testimony of Messiah and, in fact, try to subvert it, nor do what he says to do even though you claim to be his followers and claim to speak for him in your teachings, (Luke 6:46). Yes, the whole three lot of you are heretics, blasphemers, and anathema. :chuckle:

You didn't read my post well, did you? I said the angel was delivering a direct quote. From guess who? lain:

Yep, two beings. One an angel delivering the Alpha and Omega's direct quotes (the Other being). Question, which one do you suppose said not to worship him??? :think:

I think your theology, at best not informed and hasty. At worst the actual anathema. Because of misunderstanding the scriptures themselves? I guess I'm glad you at least are talking to Trinitarians that perhaps that might change. -Lon

 

[daqq]

As per the trinity doctrine, simply go the creeds. There are not a billion or even a hundred different trinity doctrines. There ARE laymen who haven't read the creeds or gone through triune scriptures. I'm okay with an emerging grasp of triune doctrine. I'm not okay with adverse (hetero, heretical) doctrine. The difference is who is trying to espouse the scriptures, and who is damaging scriptures of willful purpose. Understand? (more on those scriptures below)


You didn't read my post well, did you? I said the angel was delivering a direct quote. From guess who? lain:

Yep, two beings. One an angel delivering the Alpha and Omega's direct quotes (the Other being). Question, which one do you suppose said not to worship him??? :think:

I think your theology, at best not informed and hasty. At worst the actual anathema. Because of misunderstanding the scriptures themselves? I guess I'm glad you at least are talking to Trinitarians that perhaps that might change. -Lon

You are still playing a Modalist hat trick. Look at the first chapter as I already previously noted, (which gives essentially the same description that is given of the Messenger in Daniel 10:1-6, as already noted, and which timing, if you know the days and weeks, is the same timing of the conversion of Saul on the way to Damascus where and when he saw Messiah). The Son is the express image of the Father, (the Son, the Word, is the image). Messiah the Son of Elohim is the very Glory of the Father. Messiah says all through the Gospel of John that the Father has sent him. You only cannot see it in the passage under discussion because your mindset and indoctrination will not allow for such a possibility.

 

[Zeke]

Of course I'm making assumptions. The book molds us, we do not mold the book. Read it.

No need to keep reading the dead letter over and over if you have grasp 2cor 3:6 Galatians 1:12 which you have yet to discern because you are to loyal to mans creeds and historic folly.

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[Lon]

No need to keep reading the dead letter over and over if you have grasp 2cor 3:6 Galatians 1:12 which you have yet to discern because you are to loyal to mans creeds and historic folly.

:doh: If it is a 'dead' letter, why are you quoting it? Please consider: John 6:63-70 Matthew 4:4 James 1:22-25 do you understand?

 

[Lon]

You are still playing a Modalist hat trick. Look at the first chapter as I already previously noted, (which gives essentially the same description that is given of the Messenger in Daniel 10:1-6, as already noted, and which timing, if you know the days and weeks, is the same timing of the conversion of Saul on the way to Damascus where and when he saw Messiah). The Son is the express image of the Father, (the Son, the Word, is the image). Messiah the Son of Elohim is the very Glory of the Father. Messiah says all through the Gospel of John that the Father has sent him. You only cannot see it in the passage under discussion because your mindset and indoctrination will not allow for such a possibility.

:nono: I am Tri- AND -une. It is a tightrope walk BETWEEN modalism and dual-theism (Arian Unitarian). What does that mean? It means 1) Yes you are correct, because you aren't on the rope between scriptures, you don't see the fall from above. We, as Trinitarians, are desperately clinging to all scriptures. I know for a fact, "God created the heavens and the earth." Colossians 1 says "God" is the Lord Jesus Christ. How? :idunno: Scripture says there never has, or ever will be another god beside Him. How? :idunno:

I CAN explain the creeds. I can explain that I'm both tri- and -une.

Realize, often, when you argue, you are often forcing the tri- or -une in conversations. We are adamantly both.

Perhaps one more: We believe both modalists and arians are about half-right, thus, about half of the time we agree with your perspective, but (and hope this makes sense) we embrace the other side in our doctrine. I 'think' Modalists and Arians/Unitarians are using human conceptions to try and explain the mystery we are seeing in scriptures. The problem is simply this: Having read the Bible, I believe there is Only One God (modal -une) and Father, Spirit, Son are/is Him. -Lon

 

[Jerry Shugart]

But where does the Spirit come is the point...

No, that is not the point. The point is that the Apostle John makes it plain that the Lord Jesus is God:

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

You just refuse to address the point of what John says in that verse.

 

[Lon]

You are still playing a Modalist hat trick.

Btw, I believe sometimes, the disagreement between camps is how one conceives terms differently. "God" is a big word. You note I use it to reveal that both the Father and Son and Spirit (God) created the Heavens and the Earth. Thus I use "God" as synonymous with Creator. I guess I'm saying perhaps there is agreement sometimes but that we rarely notice such agreements in conversation. It is due to using the larger term "God" here where you may agree that God/the Lord Jesus Christ - created.

I suppose what I'm saying is that we, on the tightrope, are a bit touchy about distraction or supposed heckling from either Arians or Modalists. You've said you are Triune in some sense. I realize we are opposed on other doctrines such that I have you mostly on ignore, but on this particular, perhaps not. -Lon

 

[Zeke]

No, that is not the point. The point is that the Apostle John makes it plain that the Lord Jesus is God:

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​

You just refuse to address the point of what John says in that verse.

And kingdom is where that all takes place you look outward which has stuck you in first Adam thinking.

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[Jerry Shugart]

And kingdom is where that all takes place you look outward which has stuck you in first Adam thinking

So are you saying that the Lord Jesus is not God except in the kingdom?:

"We know also that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true. And we are in him who is true by being in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life" (1 Jn.5:20).​