AND crop offerings.
Animal Sacrifices Found in the Old Testament ?
- Thread starter Jerry Shugart
- Start date
I tell you what, you blithering moron ......
Why don't you go back in time to Israel and try waving a dead bloody lamb around for the offering of Firstfruits instead of the crops GOD specified and see what happens.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, but all the blessings and offerings under the Mosaic Covenant were entirely dependent on the "blood of the covenant." After delivering the children of Israel from Egypt, the Lord brings them to Mount Sinai. There He warns them not to come near to Him. They must not even touch the base of the mountain:
"Take heed to yourselves, that ye go not up into the mount, or touch the border of it. Whosoever toucheth the mount shall be surely put to death" (Ex.19:12).
Let us examine the amazing changes that result from "blood". First an altar was set up and burnt-offerings were offered, and then the blood of the covenant was sprinkled upon the people:
"And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words" (Ex.24:8).
With the blood the nation was set aside as the Lord's special people and "then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy elders of Israel...and upon the nobles of the children of Israel He laid not His hand; also they saw God, and did eat and drink" (Ex.24:9,11). Then the Lord gives the command: "Let Me make them a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them" (Ex.25:8).
Just the day before it would have been death if they would even touch the mount, but now they saw God, and they were at peace in His presence. In the day when the people were sprinkled with the blood of the covenant the nation of Israel was established as a holy people in covenant with God.
Without the blood of the covenant the nation would not be in a covenant relationship with the Lord. And without that relationship then all of the different kinds of atonements and offerings under the Mosaic Covenant would not have been available to the children of Israel. So can we not understand that what is here is true?:
"And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission" (Heb.9:22).
It flows right off the tongue when talking about you.
The way you are always trying to answer something that was not even said is bizarre and trollish.
Not only are you not even in the same conversation, but you are not even in the same room!!!!
God's Truth
New member
The blood offering is symbolic of Jesus Christ.
God chose the animal sacrifice over Cain's crop sacrifice.
Cain didn't understand either. How is it you do not understand?
Jesus resurrecting is the Firstfruit.
What don't you get about God choosing the animal sacrifice?
The bad attitude came later from his jealousy.
And what and who are the flock and the crop in the Testimony of Messiah? YOU are the flock and the crop as taught in many places throughout the parables, allegories, sayings, and teachings of the Messiah found in the Gospel accounts: offer up therefore the bullocks and calves of your lips. Elohim does not ask for "death", (as Jerry has said), no, but rather, Elohim wants living sacrifices because Elohim is love, and life, and the Elohim of the living. The one loving both the Father and His Son will understanding the Torah-Word by way of the Testimony of the Messiah, the Son, the Word.
Deuteronomy Deuteronomy 26 “And it shall be, when you come into the land which the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, and you possess it and dwell in it, 2 that you shall take some of the first of all the produce of the ground, which you shall bring from your land that the Lord your God is giving you, and put it in a basket and go to the place where the Lord your God chooses to make His name abide. 3 And you shall go to the one who is priest in those days, and say to him, ‘I declare today to the Lord your God that I have come to the country which the Lord swore to our fathers to give us.’
Hebrews 11:4 By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as righteous when God gave approval to his gifts. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead.
Genesis 4:1 Now Adam knew Eve his wife, and she conceived and bore Cain, and said, “I have acquired a man from the Lord.” 2 Then she bore again, this time his brother Abel. Now Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground. 3 And in the process of time it came to pass that Cain brought an offering of the fruit of the ground to the Lord. 4 Abel also brought of the firstborn of his flock and of their fat. And the Lord respected Abel and his offering, 5 but He did not respect Cain and his offering. And Cain was very angry, and his countenance fell.
You can't interject your argument, because the Bible agrees with the faith perspective. You and the other person are arguing against the Bible. Tambora is defended by the Bible.
Feel free to add a word or take a word away. That is up to you.
God's Truth
New member
You spoke publicly about the offering of Abel and Cain, and I commented on it.
Do you really think I go by what you think of me?
This is true, but Nang and the other individual are interjecting into the Genesis account and trying to bypass the faith implications of the record we find in Genesis 4.
God's Truth
New member
You know you are wrong but you keep trying.
However, I love debating God's Truth, and I will proceed.
'By faith' in this scripture is that Abel believed it is better to give a blood offering, and Cain did not acknowledge that truth. How do you ever get that that changes the fact that God accepted the offering of blood over the offering from the crops?
Luke 12:31-32 ASV
31 Yet seek ye his kingdom, and these things shall be added unto you.
32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.
John 4:28-38 ASV
28 So the woman left her waterpot, and went away into the city, and saith to the people,
29 Come, see a man, who told me all things that ever I did: can this be the Christ?
30 They went out of the city, and were coming to him.
31 In the mean while the disciples prayed him, saying, Rabbi, eat.
32 But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not.
33 The disciples therefore said one to another, Hath any man brought him aught to eat?
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work.
35 Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white already unto harvest.
36 He that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal; that he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together.
37 For herein is the saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth.
38 I sent you to reap that whereon ye have not labored: others have labored, and ye are entered into their labor.
The Master is teaching supernal Torah throughout the Gospel accounts.
These things have massive implications, applications, and impact to the doctrine.
Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Do you deny that the animal sacrifices found in the OT, including burnt offerings, were according to the commandment of the LORD?:
"An altar of earth thou shalt make unto me, and shalt sacrifice thereon thy burnt offerings, and thy peace offerings, thy sheep, and thine oxen: in all places where I record my name I will come unto thee, and I will bless thee" (Ex.20:24).
Are you really willing to argue that the LORD is speaking about "living sacrifices" in this verse?
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Jerry Shugart
Well-known member
Yes, that is right:
I think that the LORD must have told both that an animal sacrifice was what pleased Him and only Abel took Him at His word. Perhaps Cain reasoned that his offering was more politically correct!
Blood Sacrifice is important and you are correct to acknowledge it. However, it isn't until Noah that what you are saying is addressed.
You and Tambora are both correct, but you are adding to scripture by denying that God focuses on the faith aspect of Able.
The story is void if you remove the focus on Ables faith.
Please produce Bible verses on the Able account that say exactly what you are arguing that demote faith vs Works as the issue to understand in Genesis 4.
God's Truth
New member
God gave the law to Moses and that law required works which required animal sacrifices.
Read and study all the things the Jews had to do just to worship God:
The Burnt Offering; The Grain Offering; The Fellowship Offering; The Sin Offering; The Guilt Offering; Dietary Laws; Purification After Childbirth; Cleansing From Infectious Skin Diseases; Cleansing From Mildew; Discharges Causing Uncleanness; The Day of Atonement; Rules for Priests; The Sabbath; Firstfruits; The Passover and Unleavened Bread; Feast of Weeks; Feast of Trumpets; Feast of Tabernacles; Oil and Bread Set Before The LORD; the Sabbath Year; The Year of Jubilee; Circumcision.
Those are the righteous works of the law the Jews had to do to be justified/sanctified/cleaned.
To all,
Pay attention.
If Cain had brought a lamb with the same wrong attitude (not by faith), it would not have been accepted.
If Abel had brought crops with the same right attitude (by faith), it would be accepted.
Cain was supposed to bring crop because that is the role that GOD placed him in --- as a tiller of the ground.
Abel was supposed to bring from the flock because that is the role GOD placed him in --- keeper of the sheep.
Cain was not rejected because of WHAT he brought, but for the attitude he brought it with.
Hebrews 11:4 tells us why Abel was accepted, because he did it by faith.
I don't know why you all would argue that a flock offering is better than a crop offering when BOTH were symbolic of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The flock offering (Passover) was death - the cross.
The crop offering (Firstfruits) was life - the resurrection.
And here's the kicker ......
If the flock offering happened (Passover), and the crop offering didn't (Firstfruits) ....... then no resurrection.
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain. 1 Cor 15:14
In other words, a flock offering without the crop offering leaves you trapped in the grave and your hope of being raised to eternal life is nothing but a pipe dream.
It takes BOTH.
And with that I will bow out of this thread and let ya'll take in whatever direction you want.
No hard feelings. But this is crystal clear to me and I see no point in repeating myself.
:carryon:
Pay attention.
If Cain had brought a lamb with the same wrong attitude (not by faith), it would not have been accepted.
If Abel had brought crops with the same right attitude (by faith), it would be accepted.
Cain was supposed to bring crop because that is the role that GOD placed him in --- as a tiller of the ground.
Abel was supposed to bring from the flock because that is the role GOD placed him in --- keeper of the sheep.
Cain was not rejected because of WHAT he brought, but for the attitude he brought it with.
Hebrews 11:4 tells us why Abel was accepted, because he did it by faith.
I don't know why you all would argue that a flock offering is better than a crop offering when BOTH were symbolic of the Lord Jesus Christ.
The flock offering (Passover) was death - the cross.
The crop offering (Firstfruits) was life - the resurrection.
And here's the kicker ......
If the flock offering happened (Passover), and the crop offering didn't (Firstfruits) ....... then no resurrection.
And if Christ be not raised, your faith is in vain. 1 Cor 15:14
In other words, a flock offering without the crop offering leaves you trapped in the grave and your hope of being raised to eternal life is nothing but a pipe dream.
It takes BOTH.
And with that I will bow out of this thread and let ya'll take in whatever direction you want.
No hard feelings. But this is crystal clear to me and I see no point in repeating myself.
:carryon:
You deny the Testimony of the Master.
And that says an altar of adamah which is the altar of the heart, (parable of the Sower).
Exodus 20:24
24 An altar of adamah shall you make unto Me, and shall sacrifice thereon your ascending offerings, (prayer) and your peace offerings, your sheep, and your oxen: (the bullocks of your lips) in all places where I record My name, I will come unto you, and I will bless you.
You are the Land, O man, both the eretz outer bounds, (the flesh), and the adamah; and the adamah is the soil of the heart in supernal Torah by the teachings of Messiah in the Gospel accounts, (such as clearly displayed in the parable of the Sower). The adamah is the soil from which the first man Adam was taken, (Gen 2:7), which when he was cast forth out of Eden he was sent back to till, (and that is symbolism for tilling the soil of the heart after having transgressed). The Torah likewise reveals this supernal truth in the companion passage to Exo 20:24 which you have quoted, (and if not for the Testimony of Messiah in the Gospel accounts I would have never even seen or understood this).
Deuteronomy 5:29
29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!
Exo 20:24a - "An altar of adamah shall you make unto Me"
Deut 5:29a - "O that there were such an heart in them"
By the companion passage, Deuteronomy 5:29, it is revealed that the altar of adamah-soil from Exodus 20:24 is the heart; just exactly as it is expounded in the parable of the Sower by the Master in the Gospel accounts. Your carnal Pharisaic interpretations of the Torah are an affront because they are an old school Pharisaic flesh-minded carnal argument against the Testimony of the Master Teacher recorded in the Gospel accounts. Again, you are the blind leading the blind.
I couldn't have said that as well if I had tried!
No bible verse?
Precisely