All of the demands for the salvation of fallen man have been met by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul meant when he said, "YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM" Colossians 2:10.
"And You Are Complete in Jesus Christ" Colossians 2:10.
- Thread starter Robert Pate
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All of the demands for the salvation of fallen man have been met by the doing and the dying of Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul meant when he said, "YOU ARE COMPLETE IN HIM" Colossians 2:10.
Nanja
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The only portion of fallen man that is Complete in Christ are the Election of Grace Rom. 11:5, before conversion or after, because God views them as Righteous, having fulfilled His Law to the uttermost by Christ's Obedience on their behalf.
Rom. 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
You quote scripture without understanding because you are void of the Holy Spirit.
"So by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous" Romans 5:19. Means that Jesus has provided salvation for EVERYONE, Hebrews 2:9. So that, "Whosoever that shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved" Romans 10:13.
You need to call on Christ to save you.
glorydaz
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Not Pelagian again. :sigh:
I don't understand the point you are trying to make with that article.
But what I do know is what I have known from the moment of my salvation. I will give all the glory to God for everything He accomplishes in and through me. Not a bit will I claim as my own doing. First, upon believing, He sheds His love abroad on my heart, and fills me with His Spirit. He provides all the armour I will ever need, and He is going about HIS business of conforming me into His image.
Trust and reliance on God come with belief....if it doesn't, it isn't belief.
glorydaz
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Yep, those who believe will be made righteous. This is the righteousness of FAITH.
Romans 4:21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform. 22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead; 25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.
Ask Mr. Religion
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On the contrary, Pelagianism in all its forms applies as long as one claims they possess the ability to choose wisely, to "just believe", without any intervention beforehand by God the Holy Spirit to restore their state of moral inability to one that can do what they ought to do (Eze. 36:26).
The non-believer cannot do what he ought to do. What he ought to do is obey God's command to believe and be saved. He possesses no moral ability to do so. That is why "ought does not imply can" is linked above and carefully explained. That is why the prayer "Oh God, grant what You command, and command what You desire" is applicable.
If you deny this simple prayer in whole or in part, you are in Pelagian camp, as the article explains (I hope you read it). Pelagius' entire disputation with the church centers around the argument I am making: that the lost cannot do what they ought to do as relates to salvation. Pelagius' argument is simply that anything God commands, the assumption is that man is morally able to comply. Scripture denies this.
The plain fact of your argument is that the reason you are a believer and your neighbor is not is because you were more wise, more discerning, more intelligent, more obedient, than your neighbor. No matter how much flowery language is used in denying "not my will" the conclusion is inescapable as long as you deny that you were not able to make the right choice until God first acted to restore your moral inability to moral ability, such that you could indeed and irrevocably make the right choice.
You may simply state that, well, God was acting upon me by wooing me, just as He woos all persons and I just "let go, and let God" as if you were wholly passive in all that is going on. How is it that you did as such, and your neighbor did not? What accounts for your surrender and your neighbor's refusal?
If you really believe all this, then you are simply denying the obvious. If indeed you played no part, then the fact that you are saved is because God acted upon you in a manner such that you could not not be saved. That's regeneration, quickening, by God the Holy Spirit, Who restored your moral inability to one of moral ability, and at that instant of restoration you were granted faith and repentance. Obviously, something special occurred here, for you are born anew and your neighbor is not.
After all, God is apparently wooing all persons equally, not playing favorites, yet here you are born again and others are not. You claim you did nothing, made no moral contributions based upon your wisdom, discernment, intelligence, etc. Yet you are saved. The only explanation possible from this state of affairs, given your "Not me, but God only" argument is that God did something to you He did not do to another. Clearly God, for whatever reasons He may have and not revealed (Deut. 20:20), set His preferences upon you and not upon another. God chose you. God did not choose your neighbor, who is exactly like you in every respect, given your claim of God did it all, I did nothing.
So, if there is a person confused in this discussion it is me. You claim God did it all, you had nothing to do with your being the one of those that was saved by God. So do I.
Yet, you continue to object to what I have stated. I think the real issue is the cognitive dissonance that you have here in trying mightily to claim no reason for boasting in your salvation, while also denying the Calvinist view of moral inability to choose wisely (no reason for boasting). Either you are in agreement with the Calvinist view or you are not being more clear about what "not a bit will I claim as my own doing" really means.
AMR
Maybe that particular aspect of Calvinism is correct, in that, one day you read the Bible or heard the word and nothing happened, you weren't convinced but then one day you heard or read, and something was different and you believed. Perhaps God did a work in you that caused you to seek Him and believe, how does that mean that you had no choice? How can you keep from boasting of being chosen over your neighbor?
glorydaz
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Nope. I actually believe there is POWER in the Gospel to persuade men. I didn't choose to believe...I was persuaded by the preaching of the word. There was nothing better about me, and I don't think true believers ever think that, much less claim it to be so. But I had reached a point in my life where I knew something was missing. There was an emptiness and a concern about what was ahead. I've talked to many people who felt the same. Going about our business, but never really feeling complete.
It's the light of the glorious Gospel that draws us, and exposes our need for our Saviour. It's a longing we all have as God's creation to know our maker. Which is why God says man is without excuse. What you're saying is that man has an excuse, and must be chosen before he can believe. I don't think for a minute Scripture supports that view. I do think that some men love darkness more than the light (I did myself for too many years) and, should a day come that they are brought to their knees and see their need...or begin to wonder what is missing, they, too, may be looking for that light. I've known people who seek God early in life because of what they have gone through....we are all different. Some are old before they even give God a thought. We all have a lifetime in which to turn to God....who is to say someone doesn't hear? Not me.
Even the goodness of God can lead people to turn to their Creator....thankfulness and the realization that we are truly blessed and fearfully and wonderfully made. I remember well when I was drawn to know and understand the Creator. Men have always hoped and looked up...seeking to know Him. Nothing special about man desiring to find what he can never find in the world around him. The lack is forever felt by the creature. God made us that way.
beloved57
Well-known member
You still teach that sinners Christ lived and died for are condemned. Thats not Faith in Christ, sorry!
beloved57
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False Teaching. Those Christ obeyed for shall be made righteous Rom 5:19!
Epoisses
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Christ died for everyone, some believe and some don't. Calvinism is an elaborate system of unbelief in Christ as the savior of the world.
beloved57
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You deny that Christ death alone saved thwm He died for. That is nor Faith in Christ.
Poor blind fool does not believe that Jesus atoned for the sins of the whole world.
"And he is a propitiation for our sin: and not ours only, BUT ALSO FOR THE SINS OF THE WHOLE WORLD" 1 John 2:2
Poor blind fool is now without an excuse.
Ask Mr. Religion
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The fact that God is the One granting the faith that comes from regeneration. Upon regeneration, you are made willing to believe and cannot not believe, for you genuinely want to believe. Prior to that regeneration, you were morally incapable of wanting to believe (Jer. 17:9; Mark 7:21-23; Eph. 2:2; Eph. 2:4-5; Titus 3:5; John 3:19; Rom. 3:10-12; 5:6; 6:16-20; Eph. 2:1,3;1 Cor. 2:14), for you genuinely hated God with every breath you drew. So, yes, you had a choice, immediately/coincidentally upon regeneration. You choose according to what you are most inclined. Upon being regenerated your inclinations are wholly Godward, and you will choose to believe. God is not believing for you. You are. God granted this faith to you.
Yes, you may say to your neighbor, "God chose me." That is not a boast, but a factual statement, unless your motives behind such a statement are sinful pride. When your neighbor asks "Why you?" tell him "I have no idea, for it was certainly not for anything He saw in me that would give Him cause to choose me. I merited only judgment, not His mercy."
Then when he asks, "How can I get what you have got?" remind him that all who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. Then leave the outcomes to the Lord rather than trying to figure out how is it that some are saved and some are not (Deut. 29:29).
AMR
It is very apparent that you have not been instrumental in bringing people to Christ. You don't have any good news.
Why not tell them that, "God so loved the world (everyone) that he gave his only begotten Son, that WHOSOEVER believes in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved" John 3:16,17.
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If All Would Only Do As Robert Pate Did - Contribute to His Re-Birth
If All Would Only Do As Robert Pate Did - Contribute to His Re-Birth
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Gospel-Works&p=5068917&viewfull=1#post5068917
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...OSOEVER-quot&p=5028731&viewfull=1#post5028731
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-s-Nazi-God&p=4920136&viewfull=1#post4920136
In the end the logical conclusion of your view or anyone who supports such a view is this:
“Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.
View attachment 25939
Always a "blessing" to meet a man who is special when compared to his poor neighbors. Unlike your poor neighbors, you were persuaded, you knew something was missing, you longed for God, you were concerned about what was ahead, you looked upwards with hands outward rather than fists clenched.
Oh, how things would have been so different if only it were you in the Garden, rather than that first man made upright, good, yet mutable. You would have represented all of us then in your loins rightly. You, being ever so much more than that first man, would have prevailed in your probation, and we all would be living eternally, never knowing the sting of death, in the presence of Our Lord. :AMR:
AMR
If All Would Only Do As Robert Pate Did - Contribute to His Re-Birth
I do, Robert. Fortunately, I when I do use this wonderful passage I also do not misinterpret it to mean what you think it means:
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...Gospel-Works&p=5068917&viewfull=1#post5068917
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...redestinated&p=4851757&viewfull=1#post4851757
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...OSOEVER-quot&p=5028731&viewfull=1#post5028731
http://theologyonline.com/showthrea...n-s-Nazi-God&p=4920136&viewfull=1#post4920136
In the end the logical conclusion of your view or anyone who supports such a view is this:
“Lord, I thank thee that I am not like these poor, presumptuous Calvinists. Lord, I was born with a glorious free will; I was born with a power by which I can turn to thee of myself; I have improved my grace. If everybody had done the same with their grace as I have, they might all have been saved. Lord, I know that thou dost not make us willing if we are not willing ourselves… it was not thy grace that made us differ… I made use of what was given me, and others did not—that is the difference between me and them.”
Src: Spurgeon, Sermon on John 5:40 “Free Will a Slave” The New Park Street Pulpit, 1855- 1856, Volumes I & II (Pilgrim 1975), 395-402.
View attachment 25939
Always a "blessing" to meet a man who is special when compared to his poor neighbors. Unlike your poor neighbors, you were persuaded, you knew something was missing, you longed for God, you were concerned about what was ahead, you looked upwards with hands outward rather than fists clenched.
Oh, how things would have been so different if only it were you in the Garden, rather than that first man made upright, good, yet mutable. You would have represented all of us then in your loins rightly. You, being ever so much more than that first man, would have prevailed in your probation, and we all would be living eternally, never knowing the sting of death, in the presence of Our Lord. :AMR:
AMR
John Calvin could not believe that salvation was by faith alone, so he came up with his doctrine of predestination. He was only 25 years old and fresh out of the catholic church, so it is no surprise that he was screwed up. He wanted to be famous like Martin Luther. It is quite apparent that he had an ego problem.
Martin Luther declared that salvation was by Christ alone.
"To him that does NO WORKS but believes on him that justifies the UNGODLY, his faith is counted for righteousness" Romans 4:5.
Everyone that is a Calvinist have chosen to be Calvinist by their own free will, that they have deny exist. There is nothing about faith in Christ and his Gospel, they just simply declare that they are now Calvinist.
All that were saved in the New Testament were saved because they heard and believed the Gospel.
"So then faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God, Romans 10:17. Which is the Gospel.
Calvinist do not believe this because they do not believe the Gospel.
musterion
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When you right, you right.
Ask Mr. Religion
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Robert,
Actually, Calvin, as did all the Reformers and those that preceded him, did believe salvation is by faith alone. He did not, nor should we, believe that this faith alone means faith that is alone, unaccompanied by God's power, that fallen man can muster up faith all by himself, nor that man must perform on a treadmill to maintain one's salvation.
Yes, it was Calvin who wrought out this system of theological thought with such logical clearness and emphasis that it has ever since borne his name. He did not, of course, originate the system but only set forth what appeared to him to shine forth so clearly from the pages of Scripture. The Reformation was all about returning to these truths of Scripture. Unless one denies the state of affairs for fallen men, he or she will find that Scripture attests to this profusely.
Historically speaking, Calvin gets no credit for "inventing" or "coming up with" the doctrine of predestination. God's choosing of nations and people is clearly taught in Scripture (e.g., Deuteronomy 7:6-7, Isaiah 55:11, John 6:44, John 15:16, Acts 13:48, Romans 8:28-30, Romans 9:11-13, 1 Corinthians 1:26-29, Ephesians 1:3-5, Ephesians 2:4-7, 2 Timothy 1:9) and was the view of those well over a thousand years before Calvin's time. It may occasion some surprise to discover that the doctrine of predestination was not made a matter of special study until near the end of the fourth century. The earlier church fathers placed chief emphasis on good works such as faith, repentance, almsgiving, prayers, submission to baptism, etc., as the basis of salvation.
Prior to the fourth century, the time had been largely taken up in correcting heresies within the Church and in refuting attacks from the pagan world in which it found itself. Consequently little emphasis had been placed on the systematic development of doctrine. And that the doctrine of predestination received such little attention in this age was no doubt partly due to the tendency to confuse it with the Pagan doctrine of fatalism which was so prevalent throughout the Roman Empire. But in the fourth century a more settled time had been reached, a new era in theology had dawned, and the theologians came to place more emphasis on the doctrinal content of their message.
Unfortunately, shortly after the fourth century, there was retrogression rather than progression. Clouds of ignorance blinded the people. The Church became more and more ritualistic and salvation was thought to be through the external Church. Hence the treadmill. This system of merit grew until it reached its climax in the "indulgences." The papacy came to exert great power, political as well as ecclesiastical,and throughout Catholic Europe the state of morals came to be almost intolerable. Even the priesthood became desperately corrupt and in the whole catalog of human sins and vices none are more corrupt or more offensive than those which soiled the lives of such popes as John XXIII and Alexander VI.
For all these reasons and more, until the time of the Reformation very little emphasis wasplaced on the doctrine of predestination.
Robert, you would know these things if you undertake a serious study of the history of the church. You should know these things, especially given the upcoming 500th anniversary of the Reformation upcoming this October 31. After all, we Protestants should understand what we are actually protesting.
And we most certainly are protesting Pateism.Unfortunately, Calvin is a favorite whipping boy for you, so you see him everywhere you look through those tinted mental glasses you wear. :AMR:
AMR