An Open Invitation to Civil Discussion

[Lon]

what he did was ridiculing.

Meshak, how can this be ridicule?

It is Catholic that never considering what Jesus says, it seems. That is what I am asking.

There was literally no question mark in that post.

:chuckle:

I know you commented negatively about me tons of times before. I think you are letting your personal felling let you control your attitude.

I cannot speak for Jsanford, but I've not seen him ridicule you. Even here, he did not:

There was literally no question mark in that post.

That isn't condemning or ridicule, although I guess I 'might' entertain that 'no question' mark might have been unnecessary. I could, I think, somewhat address what you were saying:

It is Catholic that never considering what Jesus says, it seems. That is what I am asking.

A question would go like this:

Is it true that Catholics never consider what Jesus seems? Am I justified in saying that it doesn't seem they do?

It wasn't said very well and so he'd have had to have guessed as to what you were actually asking. You can ▲see▲ if I did a good job of understanding your question or not, but I had to break it up to two questions. I'm not sure if I got them or if one is more important to you.

It is also a very broad question. If I were going to ask JSandford something along the line, it would be this:

J, which of Jesus commands, do you think, are the most important ones that define the Catholic Church? Of the many, do Catholics ever stress some of them of great importance, and which would they be?

I'm not sure if that helps, but I'm trying to help a little here.

My comment was constrictive and biblical.

"Constrictive?" Do you mean that it is narrowed down to a specific concern? What do you mean by constrictive? I think we'd all imagine that since the question was about the Lord Jesus Christ, we'd think it'd probably be biblical too :idunno

why are you so negative about it?

Negative? Can you show me? :think:

Spoiler

First off, a chuckle at a humorous observation is not "trolling." So, no rules have been broken.

Second, I haven't mistreated you, nor has Patrick Jane.

Third, why would I not like you being a follower of Christ? That is anti-Christian.

And lastly, if you can't be constructive, then there is no point in going forward. I appreciate sincere questions and discussion. You letting Paddy McJane know you reported him would have been more appropriate in a private message, or publicly if an extended exchange had taken place within the thread.

Thanks. -Lon

 

[meshak]

Meshak, how can this be ridicule?



I cannot speak for Jsanford, but I've not seen him ridicule you. Even here, he did not:

That isn't condemning or ridicule, although I guess I 'might' entertain that 'no question' mark might have been unnecessary. I could, I think, somewhat address what you were saying:

A question would go like this:
It wasn't said very well and so he'd have had to have guessed as to what you were actually asking. You can ▲see▲ if I did a good job of understanding your question or not, but I had to break it up to two questions. I'm not sure if I got them or if one is more important to you.

It is also a very broad question. If I were going to ask JSandford something along the line, it would be this: I'm not sure if that helps, but I'm trying to help a little here.


"Constrictive?" Do you mean that it is narrowed down to a specific concern? What do you mean by constrictive? I think we'd all imagine that since the question was about the Lord Jesus Christ, we'd think it'd probably be biblical too :idunno


Negative? Can you show me? :think:

Spoiler

Thanks. -Lon

Thanks for your input.

There are too many ridicules going on and you don't notice?

I don't know why but somehow jsanford seem to hold grudge on me.

There are so many posters comment to entertain negative interaction using their opponents. It is not so godly or good Christian thing to do.

I have seen you joining it too.

 

[drbrumley]

Thanks for your input.

There are too many ridicules going on and you don't notice?

I don't know why but somehow jsanford seem to hold grudge on me.

There are so many posters comment to entertain negative interaction using their opponents. It is not so godly or good Christian thing to do.

I have seen you joining it too.

Pot calling kettle? I am not your enemy, but you treat us as such cause we severely disagree with you.

 

[meshak]

I joined this thread because I like the title.

I thought everyone trys to stick to the topic, not ridiculing or making fun of what is commented.

I understand I did not use question mark for my comment, but my point was asking why they practice what I believe unbiblical.

I don't think that was so hard to understand what I was saying.

 

[Lon]

Thanks for your input.

There are too many ridicules going on and you don't notice?

:nono: Then again, I have you on ignore, not because of anything bad, just that you've told me you are not here to learn or hear the other side. I can then choose to discuss things with you, but we don't talk about theology because you told me you weren't open to that. For me, it defeats the purpose of TOL and so I have you on ignore. We've talked about this before, but I wanted to remind you why I don't see much where you are concerned, only when I see someone quote you :e4e:

I don't know why but somehow jsanford seem to hold grudge on me.

There are so many posters comment to entertain negative interaction using their opponents. It is not so godly or good Christian thing to do.

We've all seen that AND we all can do better. Me? I'm trying to do this: Proverbs 15:1 Romans 12:14 You've agreed with me once, it isn't easy, but that is the aim. :up:

I have seen you joining it too.

Meshak. Your memory is not so good so you should not be making these accusations. When I put you on ignore, this also pushed me to the decision. You have accused me more than once and have NEVER been able to show me where I've been mean or rude. You said Jsanford was ridiculing you too. Maybe you just don't understand that you make a lot of accusations against people that just aren't true. Do you purposefully make enemies this way? Does it help you preach at them if they are falsely accused or in some other way less godly or demonized? :idunno:
But, for this too, I had put you on ignore. I don't know how to talk to someone who thinks I and all the rest of us are evil. I don't know how to even start a conversation this way. -Lon

 

[meshak]

:nono: Then again, I have you on ignore, not because of anything bad, just that you've told me you are not here to learn or hear the other side. I can then choose to discuss things with you, but we don't talk about theology because you told me you weren't open to that. For me, it defeats the purpose of TOL and so I have you on ignore. We've talked about this before, but I wanted to remind you why I don't see much where you are concerned, only when I see someone quote you :e4e:

We've all seen that AND we all can do better. Me? I'm trying to do this: Proverbs 15:1 Romans 12:14 You've agreed with me once, it isn't easy, but that is the aim. :up:


Meshak. Your memory is not so good so you should not be making these accusations. When I put you on ignore, this also pushed me to the decision. You have accused me more than once and have NEVER been able to show me where I've been mean or rude. You said Jsanford was ridiculing you too. Maybe you just don't understand that you make a lot of accusations against people that just aren't true. Do you purposefully make enemies this way? Does it help you preach at them if they are falsely accused or in some other way less godly or demonized? :idunno:
But, for this too, I had put you on ignore. I don't know how to talk to someone who thinks I and all the rest of us are evil. I don't know how to even start a conversation this way. -Lon

I have seen you joining mocking comments of others.

Even though you were not primary of ridicular. When you support or enable ridiculing or mocking, you are still guilty by company.

I am not talking about you personally. I am talking about overall atmosphere of this site.

Do you really think this site is holding a Christian atmosphere?

And it does not seem to bother you.

Is it ok to ridicule or mock others just because they don't hold the same kind of faith with you?

 

[patrick jane]

I have seen you joining mocking comments of others.

Even though you were not primary of ridicular. When you support or enable ridiculing or mocking, you are still guilty by company.

I am not talking about you personally. I am talking about overall atmosphere of this site.

Do you really think this site is holding a Christian atmosphere?

And it does not seem to bother you.

Is it ok to ridicule or mock others just because they don't hold the same kind of faith with you?

The other shack = High IQ Shack.

 

[Lon]

I have seen you joining mocking comments of others.

I may 'laugh' with someone if that is what you mean by joining in :idunno: One day, you were laughing when John W made fun of your hat and said 'good day, sir!' Some times, we can laugh and it not be at another's expense. Even if it is at their expense, I appreciated you were not offended by anything said about a silly hat. I have a few hats and there are some of them that cause others to laugh.

Even though you were not primary of ridicular. When you support or enable ridiculing or mocking, you are still guilty by company.

Yeah, but I don't think I can control if something if funny or not. I try not to laugh if it hurts another person and is said to be mean.

We generally laugh for a couple of reasons: Something is outlandish, like a fruit hat or cartoon jeans. Something said or done or worn, you cannot hardly believe you are seeing or hearing. Something is ironic, like someone complaining about an act, and while complaining they are doing the very same act. Something is joyful or done to cause joy, like a baby smiling. Something is familiar, and I laugh so the other one knows I've done the same not too intelligent thing.

I am not talking about you personally.

Sometimes you do. I can work on some of this, but I'm saying I haven't seen it too bad in this thread. I don't see anybody being mean or rude.

I am talking about overall atmosphere of this site.

Yes, but as I said, sometimes the BEST way to get away from something bad is to ignore it or return evil with good. Romans 12:17 1 Peter 3:9 Jesus said the same thing "Love those who hate you, and do good to them." You don't need to revile anyone reviling you. Sometimes you do this, or at least try with 'good day.' The more consistent you are at it, the better :up:

Do you really think this site is holding a Christian atmosphere?

Sometimes it is a self-fulfilling prophecy: If we return evil with evil? --> evil in response and return. If we return evil for good? AT LEAST you and I would be 'holding a Christian atmosphere.' Anytime Christ is here, there is a "Christian Atmosphere."

And it does not seem to bother you.

Romans 12:21 You and I aren't supposed to be bothered, we are supposed to overcome it, by doing good

Is it ok to ridicule or mock others just because they don't hold the same kind of faith with you?

No. I'm not sure why people might ridicule or mock me. I try to find out why, but most of the time, I try to do better. I do clash with some people on TOL. I find, if I can't turn it around, or do the thing that helps fix it, I either ignore them, or I learn the hard way. I don't always want to do things the hard way. Right now? I am having a clash with one guy over his and my intellect. He thinks I'm not too smart. I really don't think he is too smart, despite him telling me he went to college. He thinks the Bible isn't from God, just about Him. He doesn't believe the Bible is God's Word. I don't think he is too wise or smart because of it, nor do I think he reads his Bible because the Bible says it is God's words. He can't figure that out so I don't think he is very intelligent. He gets really mad when I tell him that. I probably need to put him on ignore. I need to just show him verses that say the Bible is God's. He has to listen to God. He will never be convinced talking to me, so I have to think how to do it better, and honor God. Mock him? Yes, sometimes for what I believe is ignorance. I do, however, truly want him to change and understand. Lately I'm just trying to say "read your bible more" but he finds that offensive too. I'm open to suggestions how to do better.

In Him -Lon

 

[God's Truth]

You are correct: there is no Biblical command of Apostolic Succession. But, there is also no Biblical command to elect Presidents. Does this render the election as a manufactured belief?

We are only talking about the scriptures and spiritual things.

Or, does it make more sense for Tradition to stand in as an explanation? I would argue this is true. Let us examine who we view as "Apostles." The term is applied only to individuals who had direct appointment to ministry by Jesus, Himself. This is why Paul is called "Apostle," and not "disciple." Any one who follows thereafter, being instructed by the Apostles are called disciples. Hence, Apostolic Succession does not make more apostles, only disciples.

I do not understand what your point is there.

Apostolic Succession also follows the Tradition that each priest is ordained by a line of succession which leads back to the Apostles. This would make sense, as the Apostles would be the best persons to ordain the earliest priests in the New Covenant Church. Would you not agree? The Apostles discerning who best serves as spiritual fathers, presiding over their respective churches, makes sense to me.

There is not an apostolic succession from Peter to the Catholic’s current pope; and, even if it were true, it is against the scriptures.

It would appear easy to discern that Paul is telling these bickerers that they should not identify as the flock of a particular Apostle, but of Christ.

That is right; and, it proves that the Catholics claiming succession from Peter is against the teachings of God.

When we recognize that Paul is trying to unite the people of Corinth into a single unified church, absent of petty differences, we see a call to a single, organic, living church of Christ. This to me seems quite obvious that rather than denominations, we should have a single, Apostolic Church; absent of preference of style or teaching, but unified in Christ and that which is declared by the Apostles and their successors. (I know that seemed heavy handed, but rather than be vague, I figured why not just say it initially)

But you are lacking the ‘not of Cephas’ part. You do know that Cephas is Peter, and it is Peter the Catholics say they are of.

We also can easily see how the term is applied in reference to priest being "spiritual fathers" to congregations,

All the saved are priests.
We are not to call our brothers in Christ ‘father’.

and guiding them in instruction, as natural fathers are called to do.

Except that Jesus says not to.

We can also see how Apostolic Succession, while not explicitly stated and called for in Scripture, is not contrary to Scripture.

It is against the scriptures to say ‘of Cephas’.

And even that evidence of such Succession is present in the Acts and subsequent New Testament books, as the Apostles ordained various men to preside over various churches, due to the growth of the Church.

Paul said not to say ‘I am of Cephas’. Apostolic succession says ‘I am of Cephas/Peter’.

 

[meshak]

I may 'laugh' with someone if that is what you mean by joining in :idunno: One day, you were laughing when John W made fun of your hat and said 'good day, sir!' Some times, we can laugh and it not be at another's expense. Even if it is at their expense, I appreciated you were not offended by anything said about a silly hat. I have a few hats and there are some of them that cause others to laugh.


Yeah, but I don't think I can control if something if funny or not. I try not to laugh if it hurts another person and is said to be mean.

We generally laugh for a couple of reasons: Something is outlandish, like a fruit hat or cartoon jeans. Something said or done or worn, you cannot hardly believe you are seeing or hearing. Something is ironic, like someone complaining about an act, and while complaining they are doing the very same act. Something is joyful or done to cause joy, like a baby smiling. Something is familiar, and I laugh so the other one knows I've done the same not too intelligent thing.

Sometimes you do. I can work on some of this, but I'm saying I haven't seen it too bad in this thread. I don't see anybody being mean or rude.

Yes, but as I said, sometimes the BEST way to get away from something bad is to ignore it or return evil with good. Romans 12:17 1 Peter 3:9 Jesus said the same thing "Love those who hate you, and do good to them." You don't need to revile anyone reviling you. Sometimes you do this, or at least try with 'good day.' The more consistent you are at it, the better :up:

Sometimes it is a self-fulfilling prophecy: If we return evil with evil? --> evil in response and return. If we return evil for good? AT LEAST you and I would be 'holding a Christian atmosphere.' Anytime Christ is here, there is a "Christian Atmosphere."
Romans 12:21 You and I aren't supposed to be bothered, we are supposed to overcome it, by doing good


No. I'm not sure why people might ridicule or mock me. I try to find out why, but most of the time, I try to do better. I do clash with some people on TOL. I find, if I can't turn it around, or do the thing that helps fix it, I either ignore them, or I learn the hard way. I don't always want to do things the hard way. Right now? I am having a clash with one guy over his and my intellect. He thinks I'm not too smart. I really don't think he is too smart, despite him telling me he went to college. He thinks the Bible isn't from God, just about Him. He doesn't believe the Bible is God's Word. I don't think he is too wise or smart because of it, nor do I think he reads his Bible because the Bible says it is God's words. He can't figure that out so I don't think he is very intelligent. He gets really mad when I tell him that. I probably need to put him on ignore. I need to just show him verses that say the Bible is God's. He has to listen to God. He will never be convinced talking to me, so I have to think how to do it better, and honor God. Mock him? Yes, sometimes for what I believe is ignorance. I do, however, truly want him to change and understand. Lately I'm just trying to say "read your bible more" but he finds that offensive too. I'm open to suggestions how to do better.

In Him -Lon

Ok Lon,

thanks for your perspectives.

I don't think we are communicating well.

I am not good at making many points in one post.

It is my philosophy that the more we talk the more we complicate things.

now I am waiting for jsanford's reply to my post.

blessings.

 

[Lon]

Ok Lon,

thanks for your perspectives.

You are welcome.

I don't think we are communicating well.

I am not good at making many points in one post.

I know. It is okay. I don't expect it. We don't have to write long posts in response all the time.

It is my philosophy that the more we talk the more we complicate things.

blessings.

Thank you. -Lon

 

[jsanford108]

I apologize for the delay. I was unable to reply to posts today. I will do my best to have them up tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

 

[God's Truth]

I apologize for the delay. I was unable to reply to posts today. I will do my best to have them up tomorrow.


Sent from my iPhone using TOL

Would you mind if I posted more things on Catholic teachings that I go against?

 

[meshak]

Before we initiate this discussion, allow us to outline some standards and principles productive to progressive discussion.

We must be open and honest. "Open," meaning that we are not close-minded to new evidence, or views that we have not considered/heard of before. A closed mind will never grow in knowledge. We must also be honest. If we deny anything that is contrary to our personal doctrines, solely because it is aggravating to our views, then we are being intellectually dishonest.

We must also be logical. Logic is always true. God, as the author of logic, makes it truth. One would not say that God is illogical, as that would be antagonistic to God. Likewise, we should always accept logic as highlighting truth.

We must accept truth, as anything else is a falsehood. Denying, ignoring, or dismissing facts and evidence is preferring ignorance. As stated before, this keeps one from growing in the knowledge of truth. Something that is contradictory to evidence is thus illogical.

By maintaining these principles, we can keep each other in check, as any deviation can be quickly and easily proven, by an individual's own words and claims.

Let us begin:

God's Truth, you posted a few points in the thread, "The Most Dangerous Teaching." While I would say that several of your points were accurate, I find several are false. Here, I will only be addressing those that apply to Catholicism (spoiler alert: I am Catholic). Below are your quotes; I would also ask that any further points that you would like to address be mentioned early on, so that we can reference them quite quickly, with precision and accuracy.



As I am sure you have more, please provide them. I would like to go ahead and make the point that we agree that the Bible is the infallible, inspired Word of God. (I posted this the other day in ECT, but somehow it disappeared; conspiracies abound). I will make my rebuttal once you give the go ahead that all your points you wish to discuss are posted.

The floor is yours God's Truth. Thanks you.

whatever happened to this thread?

 

[God's Truth]

Confession to a Priest

Catholics teach that we must confess to a priest. In fact, if a Catholic sins a certain offensive sin and does not confess to a priest before death, then according to the Catholics, the person does not get to go to heaven with Jesus. In the Old Testament, the Jews went to a priest to confess their sins; the priest was behind a curtain, where the sinner could not cross. However, when Jesus died on the cross, the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. Through Jesus, we are reconciled to God. We go directly to God when we sin. We ask God to forgive us in the name of Jesus. Jesus intercedes for us, Romans 8:34. Jesus is our high priest. See Hebrews 2:17; 3:1; 4:14,15; 5:10; 6:20; 7:26,27, 28; 8:1; 9:7, 11, 25.

Matthew 27:51 At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split.

 

[God's Truth]

Infant baptism is not biblical

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

An infant cannot repent. Many denominations perform infant baptisms. The way to salvation changes by infant baptism, it is not biblical. Catholics perform infant baptisms; they preach this falseness, which is a damaging blow to those needing the truth, those who want Jesus to save them.

Many Catholics try to use Matthew 19:13-14 to support their false doctrine of infant baptism.

13 Then little children were brought to Jesus for him to place his hands on them and pray for them. But the disciples rebuked those who brought them.
14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15 When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

If the disciples were baptizing infants, as the Catholics claim, why do you think the disciples rebuked the people who brought the little children?
And, why did Jesus place his hands on them but not have his disciples baptize them?
The kingdom of heaven belongs to little children such as the ones brought to him.

Matthew 19:14 Jesus said, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these.” 15When he had placed his hands on them, he went on from there.

Matthew 18:3 And he said: "Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

John 9:41 Jesus said, "If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.

You see, infant baptism is not biblical. In fact, infant baptism goes against the Word of God.

 

[God's Truth]

Forbidding marrying

Catholics forbid their Nuns, Priests, Cardinals, Bishops, and Popes not to marry. The word of God tells us those teachings are teachings taught by demons. In addition, the Catholics teach to abstain from meat on Good Friday that is not from the scriptures.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron. 3 They forbid people to marry and order them to abstain from certain foods, which God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and who know the truth.

 

[God's Truth]

Catholic Traditions

When Popes add teachings to the Bible, they call this man-made teachings “Tradition.”

The Bible says the foundation was laid by the Apostles, and the Prophets, and Jesus Christ as the chief cornerstone. See Ephesians 2:20. No Pope or Bishops can add to God’s word. The foundation has been laid.

When the Apostles taught the Gospel, God also testified to what they said, God testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will. See Hebrews 2:4; Galatians 3:4-6; 2 Corinthians 12:12; Romans 15:19; Acts 19:11; Acts 8:13; Acts 2:22.

When the Popes add teachings to the Christian beliefs that are not in the Bible…there are no signs and miracles from God to testify to the validity of those teachings. Furthermore, the teachings Popes add to the Bible, they contradict God’s word. The oral Tradition of the Catholics is not biblical, and it is against the Word of God.

Peter and the other apostles said: “We must obey God rather than men! (See Acts 5:29)

See what Jesus say about tradition from men.
Matthew 15:3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?

Matthew 15:6 he is not to ‘honor his father ‘with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.

Mark 7:8 You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men.”

Mark 7:9 And he said to them: “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!

Mark 7:13 Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that.”

 

[God's Truth]

Praying to Mary and the “Saints”

Catholics teach us to pray to Mary and the other “Saints”. However, there is only one Mediator between God and man, and that is Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

It is wrong to pray to Mary. It is wrong to say the Rosary. Catholics even teach that we should pray to Saints, but we are not to pray to Saints. We can ask others to pray for us, but we are not to pray to others.

Catholics pray to Mary and ask her to go to Jesus with their request. They also do this with the Catholic saints.

When a person is saved…they have Jesus living inside them. They are reconciled to God.
Let us then approach the throne of grace with confidence, so that we may receive mercy and find grace to help us in our time of need. Hebrews 4:16.

In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence. Ephesians 3:12.

Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died–more than that, who was raised to life–is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us. Romans 8:34.

And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will. Romans 8:27.

Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. Hebrews 7:25.

For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 1 Timothy 2:5.

We do NOT go through Mary and Saints to get to Jesus and God! I hope you really do carefully consider these scriptures.

 

[God's Truth]

I can't tell you how much I love talking about God's Truth.