Abortion is Against God's Law, Illegal.

Jacob

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It looks like you have little idea of what I objected to.
Shalom.

Today is Sheni, 11-6.

Okay? Then tell me if you want to.
And a means of testing was outlined; it just wasn't a test for pregnancy.
Correct. But what are you objecting to? No test of pregnancy was mentioned and I did not mention one. You have mentioned a teaching point for if someone thinks it was a test for pregnancy.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Jacob

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Numbers 31:15-17 And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

Hosea 9:16 Yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

Hosea 13:16 Samaria shall become desolate; for she hath rebelled against her God: they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with child shall be ripped up.

Genesis 38:24 Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.

And don't forget you can have abortion on demand for your unfaithful wife:

Number 5:19-22 And the priest shall charge her by an oath, and say unto the woman, If no man have lain with thee, and if thou hast not gone aside to uncleanness with another instead of thy husband, be thou free from this bitter water that causeth the curse: But if thou hast gone aside to another instead of thy husband, and if thou be defiled, and some man have lain with thee beside thine husband: Then the priest shall charge the woman with an oath of cursing, and the priest shall say unto the woman, The LORD make thee a curse and an oath among thy people, when the LORD doth make thy thigh to rot, and thy belly to swell; And this water that causeth the curse shall go into thy bowels, to make thy belly to swell, and thy thigh to rot: And the woman shall say, Amen, amen.

Stuart

Shalom.

Today is Sheni, 11-6.

Are you saying that you believe that what is described here is an abortion? I do not believe that it is. Nothing like abortion is mentioned.

You said and don't forget, like these things add up in your mind as reasons to not believe the Bible or obey or observe or keep or do God's commandments. Rather we should keep and teach them, do and teach them.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Jacob

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So, then you have no Gospel.
You have no "Gospel of the Kingdom";
You have no "Gospel of Grace".
You only have strict Legalism.



Sounds to me like you have put yourself under a curse.

Shalom.

Today is Sheni, 11-6.

You are incorrect in all of the things that you have said in your post here. I have no idea how you have come to these conclusions nor what they mean (to you).

Yeshua instructed us that to be called great in the kingdom of heaven we must keep and teach, do and teach, the commandments.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

beameup

New member
Shalom.
I have no idea how you have come to these conclusions nor what they mean (to you).

Yeshua instructed us that to be called great in the kingdom of heaven we must keep and teach, do and teach, the commandments.
Jacob

You have already clearly stated that you do not believe in an earthly Kingdom. The Earthly Kingdom is what Jesus taught. Jesus preached the King would return to earth to set up his Kingdom. You don't believe that tremendous earthly judgment will proceed that Kingdom.

You don't teach the Pauline Gospel of Grace. The Gospel of Grace came directly to Paul from the risen Christ from heaven. To be under the Gospel of Grace, you need know nothing about Judaism, the Law of Moses, the 613 Commandments. All you have to know is that Christ died for your sins and then rose from the grave, and then ascended into heaven. He then sent the Holy Spirit to guide you. In the first century and later, not everyone even had access to "the Bible" or even had a regularly organized meeting place.
The Gospel of Grace is found in Romans through Philemon.

So, you have neither the Gospel of the Kingdom;
Nor do you have the Gospel of Grace.
Galatians convers the topic and your confused state.
 

Jacob

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Banned
You have already clearly stated that you do not believe in an earthly Kingdom. The Earthly Kingdom is what Jesus taught. Jesus preached the King would return to earth to set up his Kingdom. You don't believe that tremendous earthly judgment will proceed that Kingdom.

You don't teach the Pauline Gospel of Grace. The Gospel of Grace came directly to Paul from the risen Christ from heaven. To be under the Gospel of Grace, you need know nothing about Judaism, the Law of Moses, the 613 Commandments. All you have to know is that Christ died for your sins and then rose from the grave, and then ascended into heaven. He then sent the Holy Spirit to guide you. In the first century and later, not everyone even had access to "the Bible" or even had a regularly organized meeting place.
The Gospel of Grace is found in Romans through Philemon.

So, you have neither the Gospel of the Kingdom;
Nor do you have the Gospel of Grace.
Galatians convers the topic and your confused state.

Shalom.

Today is Sheni, 11-6.

I believe you are saying that the kingdom would be at His return. Do you believe that this is the kingdom of heaven that He taught about? Because the kingdom was near, nearby, at hand, in your (their) midst. He sent them out two by two. Were they teaching about the future or a present reality that people could partake of or in, that could be partook of, in which people could partake?

John 18:36 NKJV - 36 Jesus answered, "My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here."

Luke 12:32 NKJV - 32 "Do not fear, little flock, for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

Luke 18:16 NKJV - 16 But Jesus called them to [Him] and said, "Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God.

Romans 14:17 NKJV - 17 for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

1 Corinthians 4:20 NKJV - 20 For the kingdom of God [is] not in word but in power.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

eleos

New member
My point being that as long as the baby is connected to the mother via the umbilical cord it is part of the mother not a separate human being.

So until the umbilical cord is severed it is not a human being?

Actually the baby is not "attached to the mother". A separate organ develops and it is discarded after it is no longer needed to support the baby's development. It belongs to the baby.

The placenta is an organ that develops in your uterus during pregnancy. This structure provides oxygen and nutrients to your growing baby and removes waste products from your baby's blood. The placenta attaches to the wall of your uterus, and your baby's umbilical cord arises from it.

The placenta is composed of both maternal tissue and tissue derived from the embryo. The chorion is the embryonic-derived portion of the placenta. It is composed of fetal blood vessels and trophoblasts which are organized into finger-like structures called chorionic villi.

Blood from the mother passes through the placenta, filtering oxygen, glucose and other nutrients to your baby via the umbilical cord. ... It keeps the mother's blood separate from the baby's blood to protect the baby against infections.

The baby's blood is separate from that of the mother. If there is separate blood, are there two separate lives? I'd say so.

Life is in the blood.

Jesus gave His life .... how ... by shedding His blood. We are covered by what? The blood of Jesus.

Lots of versus in the bible regarding blood as we all know.

Interesting to ponder.
 

Jacob

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Banned
My point being that as long as the baby is connected to the mother via the umbilical cord it is part of the mother not a separate human being.

So until the umbilical cord is severed it is not a human being?

Actually the baby is not "attached to the mother". A separate organ develops and it is discarded after it is no longer needed to support the baby's development. It belongs to the baby.

The placenta is an organ that develops in your uterus during pregnancy. This structure provides oxygen and nutrients to your growing baby and removes waste products from your baby's blood. The placenta attaches to the wall of your uterus, and your baby's umbilical cord arises from it.

The placenta is composed of both maternal tissue and tissue derived from the embryo. The chorion is the embryonic-derived portion of the placenta. It is composed of fetal blood vessels and trophoblasts which are organized into finger-like structures called chorionic villi.

Blood from the mother passes through the placenta, filtering oxygen, glucose and other nutrients to your baby via the umbilical cord. ... It keeps the mother's blood separate from the baby's blood to protect the baby against infections.

The baby's blood is separate from that of the mother. If there is separate blood, are there two separate lives? I'd say so.

Life is in the blood.

Jesus gave His life .... how ... by shedding His blood. We are covered by what? The blood of Jesus.

Lots of versus in the bible regarding blood as we all know.

Interesting to ponder.
Not as far as I know. I do not believe what you are telling me.

The baby, unborn child, fetus, etc... is a (human) life in the womb, yet unborn.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

eleos

New member
Yes, I think perhaps you missed the point ... the baby from conception (life begins) requires the placenta and the placenta is only formed and is only necessary as the life support system for the baby. Oatmeal was stating the umbilical cord is attached to the mother .. it is not. At conception (when life begins) is the only time the placenta (baby's life support system) is formed and it belongs to the baby .... to support what? It's life. It has separate blood ... therefore is a separate life. The only purpose of the placenta is to support life ... so life exists ... when? at conception.
 

Jacob

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Banned
Yes, I think perhaps you missed the point ... the baby from conception (life begins) requires the placenta and the placenta is only formed and is only necessary as the life support system for the baby. Oatmeal was stating the umbilical cord is attached to the mother .. it is not. At conception (when life begins) is the only time the placenta (baby's life support system) is formed and it belongs to the baby .... to support what? It's life. It has separate blood ... therefore is a separate life. The only purpose of the placenta is to support life ... so life exists ... when? at conception.

I believe that life begins at conception or before.

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Jacob

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Banned
That would bring it to three the number of times I'd explained myself.

I do not know what you are talking about.

The question is if you would want to explain to me your reasoning, what you said, or your experience including with the scriptures or your understanding of them.

It is not a test of pregnancy or a pregnancy test. I already know that. But that has nothing to do with the commandment.
 

eleos

New member
Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, I support life at conception .... TOTALY. No doubt about it. The "debate" of when life begins .... varies. The human reproductive system answers that question. So without getting into the "weeds".

The sperm fertilizes the egg. Life begins. The body knows this, therefore at the same time it creates the "life support" system ... the placenta ... is not formed and is not needed unless life has began. Therefore, life .... does in fact .... begin at conception.
 

Stuu

New member
Are you saying that you believe that what is described here is an abortion? I do not believe that it is. Nothing like abortion is mentioned.
The problem is that it is ambiguous, of course. However, how else can you interpret it?

Stuart
 

Stuu

New member
Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, I support life at conception .... TOTALY. No doubt about it. The "debate" of when life begins .... varies. The human reproductive system answers that question. So without getting into the "weeds".

The sperm fertilizes the egg. Life begins. The body knows this, therefore at the same time it creates the "life support" system ... the placenta ... is not formed and is not needed unless life has began. Therefore, life .... does in fact .... begin at conception.
At what stage wasn't there life? The sperm and egg cells are definitely living cells.

Maybe it is more useful to think of 'a life' as being something that is, biologically, an independent living existence. A foetus is not capable of living independently until quite late in a pregnancy. If a pregnant women dies, or is killed by a god, the foetus is not an independently living being so it too will die.

Stuart
 

Jacob

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Banned
The problem is that it is ambiguous, of course. However, how else can you interpret it?

Stuart

I see you have or are having trouble interpreting understanding reading and applying this scripture. This is a Jewish practice that you may be unfamiliar with. There are people who are trained or able to answer your question. Since you are asking me I can say that this has to do with her own person, in relation to her husband and pregnancy or independent of it, the truth or legitimacy of her husband's claim or suspecting her (of infidelity) in relation to the spirit of jealousy or the law of jealousy.

Numbers 5:11-31 NKJV - 11 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 12 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'If any man's wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, 13 'and a man lies with her carnally, and it is hidden from the eyes of her husband, and it is concealed that she has defiled herself, and [there was] no witness against her, nor was she caught-- 14 'if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, who has defiled herself; or if the spirit of jealousy comes upon him and he becomes jealous of his wife, although she has not defiled herself-- 15 'then the man shall bring his wife to the priest. He shall bring the offering required for her, one-tenth of an ephah of barley meal; he shall pour no oil on it and put no frankincense on it, because it [is] a grain offering of jealousy, an offering for remembering, for bringing iniquity to remembrance. 16 'And the priest shall bring her near, and set her before the LORD. 17 'The priest shall take holy water in an earthen vessel, and take some of the dust that is on the floor of the tabernacle and put [it] into the water. 18 'Then the priest shall stand the woman before the LORD, uncover the woman's head, and put the offering for remembering in her hands, which [is] the grain offering of jealousy. And the priest shall have in his hand the bitter water that brings a curse. 19 'And the priest shall put her under oath, and say to the woman, "If no man has lain with you, and if you have not gone astray to uncleanness [while] under your husband's [authority], be free from this bitter water that brings a curse. 20 "But if you have gone astray [while] under your husband's [authority], and if you have defiled yourself and some man other than your husband has lain with you"-- 21 then the priest shall put the woman under the oath of the curse, and he shall say to the woman--"the LORD make you a curse and an oath among your people, when the LORD makes your thigh rot and your belly swell; 22 "and may this water that causes the curse go into your stomach, and make [your] belly swell and [your] thigh rot." Then the woman shall say, "Amen, so be it." 23 'Then the priest shall write these curses in a book, and he shall scrape [them] off into the bitter water. 24 'And he shall make the woman drink the bitter water that brings a curse, and the water that brings the curse shall enter her [to become] bitter. 25 'Then the priest shall take the grain offering of jealousy from the woman's hand, shall wave the offering before the LORD, and bring it to the altar; 26 'and the priest shall take a handful of the offering, as its memorial portion, burn [it] on the altar, and afterward make the woman drink the water. 27 'When he has made her drink the water, then it shall be, if she has defiled herself and behaved unfaithfully toward her husband, that the water that brings a curse will enter her [and become] bitter, and her belly will swell, her thigh will rot, and the woman will become a curse among her people. 28 'But if the woman has not defiled herself, and is clean, then she shall be free and may conceive children. 29 'This [is] the law of jealousy, when a wife, [while] under her husband's [authority], goes astray and defiles herself, 30 'or when the spirit of jealousy comes upon a man, and he becomes jealous of his wife; then he shall stand the woman before the LORD, and the priest shall execute all this law upon her. 31 'Then the man shall be free from iniquity, but that woman shall bear her guilt.'

What are you addressing or responding to in or if the Opening Post? There is a practice of responding to the opening post, even if before responding to anyone else's post in a thread (do you do this I do not know), so it is my fault for assuming you were following the previous post, or I may have been thinking about what you posted or the thread. In this thread I posted a second post (or what ended up being a second post).

Shalom.

Jacob
 

Jacob

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Jacob, Jacob, Jacob, I support life at conception .... TOTALY. No doubt about it. The "debate" of when life begins .... varies. The human reproductive system answers that question. So without getting into the "weeds".

The sperm fertilizes the egg. Life begins. The body knows this, therefore at the same time it creates the "life support" system ... the placenta ... is not formed and is not needed unless life has began. Therefore, life .... does in fact .... begin at conception.

The sperm is life and some argue that the egg is as well.
 

Stuu

New member
I see you have or are having trouble interpreting understanding reading and applying this scripture. This is a Jewish practice that you may be unfamiliar with. There are people who are trained or able to answer your question. Since you are asking me I can say that this has to do with her own person, in relation to her husband and pregnancy or independent of it, the truth or legitimacy of her husband's claim or suspecting her (of infidelity) in relation to the spirit of jealousy or the law of jealousy.

Numbers 5:11-31 NKJV - 11 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 12 "Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: 'If any man's wife goes astray and behaves unfaithfully toward him, ... but that woman shall bear her guilt.'

What are you addressing or responding to in or if the Opening Post? There is a practice of responding to the opening post, even if before responding to anyone else's post in a thread (do you do this I do not know), so it is my fault for assuming you were following the previous post, or I may have been thinking about what you posted or the thread. In this thread I posted a second post (or what ended up being a second post).

Shalom.

Jacob
Since you don't seem interested in justifying your interpretation, I'll just add that if a woman has an affair, and as a result there is a possibly a greater chance that she is pregnant, the last thing you would do if you were serious about not allowing abortion, is to feed her unknown bitter extracts in water.

Pennyroyal extract is a bitter liquid that has been used since ancient times to induce abortion. There are many other alkaloids, also bitter, known to do the same. It seems to me pretty obvious that a rotted thigh is a euphemism for affected reproductive organs.

Stuart
 

Jacob

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Banned
Since you don't seem interested in justifying your interpretation, I'll just add that if a woman has an affair, and as a result there is a possibly a greater chance that she is pregnant, the last thing you would do if you were serious about not allowing abortion, is to feed her unknown bitter extracts in water.

Pennyroyal extract is a bitter liquid that has been used since ancient times to induce abortion. There are many other alkaloids, also bitter, known to do the same. It seems to me pretty obvious that a rotted thigh is a euphemism for affected reproductive organs.

Stuart

I do not believe what you are telling me.
 

Jacob

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Banned
I'm not sure how you are with facts. Do you believe there are actually things that happened in the ancient world that we can possibly know about?

Stuart

I believe that facts exist. But this is not contextualized to your statement.

I accept the TaNaK and Matthew through Revelation. Scripture. God's Word. The Bible. History. Truth.

I do not even know what you mean by the ancient world.

Shalom.

Jacob
 
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