A Proof that God Exists

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

It's a shame that the "intelligent design" campaign was and is so dishonest, because I believe there really is something to it in terms of evidence for the reality of "God". But because the Bible literalists have laid claim to the idea, and the label, and then dishonestly represented it, it has become nearly impossible to even mention it without sparking a blinding debate from people who aren't thinking or listening to each other, at all.

Existence does require order to maintain it's own integrity. And that order IS EVIDENCE of what we would generally call "design". But so far, that's all we can say about it, because we have no idea from whence that "design" originates. Yet it is evident in all things. Always. From before the universe began, to after it ends (presumably). And I have encountered no reasonable internal, materialistic explanation for this mystery. None.

It's not proof, but it is evidence. And it's impossible to reason our way around it. Not honestly, anyway.

The Intelligent Design has always existed without a beginning or origin and without an end. No yesterday nor tomorrow as He always is. Asked by Moses what to say to the Israelites in Egypt when they asked for the name of Who sent him to them, the answer was "I AM". Just tem them "I AM" has sent you. (Exod. 3:14)

We are all evidences for the existence of the Most High through the concept of Causality. Otherwise we would not be here today discussing this issue with each other.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

For a true Christian, God's truth is timeless, and the words of the ungodly are circular. The Dark Matter is primordial, and from it God created this Universe.

Can you describe the nature of "dark matter?" I don't think so. To go to the Primal Cause through dark matter is no different from turning the issue into a guess aka a theory.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

BEN MASADA said,
1 - From Abraham and until Aristotle God existed only for the pious who could exercise faith.

2 - Hebrews 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.

3 - ABRAHAM MET THE LORD GOD AND TALKED WITH HIM ABOUT HIS FURTHER ACTIONS.

4 - Genesis 18:27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

5 - Genesis 17:9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

6 - Genesis 18:13 And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old?

7 - BEN MASADA , Without GOD, Abraham , Isaac and Jacob, YOU would not exist.

1 - I meant by to say that now we no longer need faith to believe in the Primal Cause aka HaShem. We have Logic through Physics the evidence that He caused the universe to exist.

2 - Now we don't need to see in the flesh to walk by sight and much less by faith taking the word of a mortal for it. (II Cor. 5:7)

3 - True but in a dream or vision as the method used by the Primal Cause to reveal Himself to His Prophets. (Numb. 12:6)

4 - Not literally but through a dream or vision. (Exod. 33:20)

5 - And thy seed Israel after thee in thy generations. (Gen. 17:21)

6 - Yes, Sarah laughed during the dream Abraham was having with the Lord. (Gen. 18:13)

7 - None of us would. Now, go tell the atheists who deny the existence of the Primal Cause.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

I am as strongly convinced of the existence of God as a man can be short of actually seeing Him face to face but this post is the biggest heap of steaming stupidity that I have ever seen presented as any sort of proof of the existence of God or of anything else for that matter.

Every atheist on this forum that reads your post will bust out laughing out loud! All you'll have done is convince them that theists are all stupid. And make no mistake, they will lump us all in the stupidity heap with you. If anything you'll have succeeded in further cementing them into their unbelief. Way to go!

Sorry Clete, but I think you are terribly mistaken. What do you have to be strongly convinced for the existence of the Primal Cause, faith? Now, go and tell it to the atheists and you will experience all you have said above of their reaction to my method. I have met them already and they take the easiest way out, "I don't know." They don't even take the challenge about the Logic that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. Believe it or not, but most of them even deny the big bang to avoid looking for an answer to my question. But let's leave them alone for now and tell me yourself if you know that the universe could not have caused itself to exist. If you don't, at least, that's my method to prove the existence of HaShem the Primal Cause.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

Well, I say, let's prove God exist, then we can bring Him down to our level and he can be like us, feeble, diminutive, unpowerful, lost, going to and fro looking for something.

Well, I have been taken with the understanding that your idea about the Primal Cause is quite childish.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

1 - There are two aspects to consider, chaos, and design. Did the life forms in this world arise from chaos at about the same time, or are they produced by design?

2 - The missing links are missing for a reason.

1 - It depends on what you understand by design and chaos. The last sounds to me something akin to the big bang. The first, something akin to order.

2 - Perhaps to force our intellect to think.

 

[PureX]

While you hold unto it, would you please tell me: Did the universe cause itself to exist or was caused by something that preceded it?

I don't know. Neither does anyone else. It's a mystery.

 

[PureX]

Just read what you write. You proceed from "not at all uneasy" to "despair". :idunno:

You misunderstood. I said KNOWING would be despairing, not the mystery.

That's not my assumption at all! :sigh: My position is that creation origins remain unfathomable

Sorry, I must have had you confused with someone else. I am also agnostic, though I do choose to believe in God. I know that sounds contradictory, but it's not, really. Once we realize that beliefs are a choice based on evidence, not a pretense based on certain knowledge.

.....the "designed or random creation" dichotomy is a false one.

I agree, but it's because of the "or". The design of creation includes randomness, and the culling of random outcomes via 'ordered' limitations.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

1 - What? Paul "fabricated" the Hellenistic idea that Jesus had resurrected?!! This in a Christian forum??

2 - The Jesus Paul preached was a Jewish Messiah who fulfilled over 300 prophecies from the Tanukh, one of them in the first few chapters of Genesis! Another one predicted HIS resurrection, and Job said "I know that in my flesh I shall see him".

3 - And MANY more scriptures and not just Paul's because the word of God is a seamless whole.

1 - What do you mean by "This is a Christian forum" that you guys can't take the truth spoken by another who has the same Faith of Jesus which was Judaism? The Truth cannot be found in the chit-chattering of common beliefs but only in controversy.

2 - Well, let's make a deal. Of those 300 prophecies in the Tanach which you claim to have been fulfilled by Jesus, if you quote only 10 to me and I cannot explain to you that they mean something else, I'll give you my word that I'll become a Christian just as you are. Do we have a deal or not? Just don't forget that you said Tanach and not the NT.

3 - More than 300! As I have told you, give me 10 and you got it.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

The "discovery" that the universe had a beginning was not a "Catholic" discovery at all! Every Bible believer in history believed that Genesis One described the very beginning. Isaac Newton surely believed it. Lots of science greats believed it, most of them in history in fact. Research! Paul said to beware of science "falsely so-called".

(For today, he could have said also to beware of "science history" falsely so-called.

I don't even need faith to believe that the universe had a beginning. It had to, and not even because the Bible says so but also because it is a fact that the universe is composed of matter and matter can not cause itself to exist. So, it had to be caused by some something else that preceded it.
that preceded it.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

Works for me!

Baruch HaShem and, good for you!

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists.

A Proof that God Exists.

I don't know. Neither does anyone else. It's a mystery.

No, it is not a mystery if you can think logically. It is a fact that the universe is composed of matter and that matter cannot cause itself to exist. Since it had a beginning, it is only obvious that it had to be caused to exist. What then caused the universe to exist, you, I, or something else much bigger than you and me?

 

[quip]

No, it is not a mystery if you can think logically. It is a fact that the universe is composed of matter and that matter cannot cause itself to exist. Since it had a beginning, it is only obvious that it had to be caused to exist. What then caused the universe to exist, you, I, or something else much bigger than you and me?

This is contradictory, unless of course, you are cognizant of how god created matter out of nothing. Otherwise it still remains a mystery whilst your comforting conclusion of some asserted creator-god -- rationally speaking -- doesn't explain anything at all.

God is no less the logical dead-end as matter causing itself to exist is.

 

[PureX]

No, it is not a mystery if you can think logically. It is a fact that the universe is composed of matter and that matter cannot cause itself to exist. Since it had a beginning, it is only obvious that it had to be caused to exist. What then caused the universe to exist, you, I, or something else much bigger than you and me?

The universe is not "composed of matter". The universe is energy expressing itself. Matter is one of the ways energy expresses itself. So is time, space, motion, light, heat, and so on.

The point being that existence is energy expressed. And we do not know what the origin of all this energy is, or why it can express itself in some ways, but not in others. Some people call this mystery "God", some call it irrelevant, and some ignore it all together. But the mystery remains. And you don't know the answer to this mystery any more than I or anyone else, does. Pretending isn't knowing. Believing isn't knowing. And in our case (humanity) even knowing isn't knowing for certain.

 

[OCTOBER23]

BEN MASADA said,

Now, go tell the atheists who deny the existence of the Primal Cause.
---------------------------------------------------

THEY HAVE MOSES AND ELIJAH WHO WILL SOON BE HERE

AS THE TWO WITNESSES let them hear them.

Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him,

They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God

A Proof that God

This is contradictory, unless of course, you are cognizant of how god created matter out of nothing. Otherwise it still remains a mystery whilst your comforting conclusion of some asserted creator-god -- rationally speaking -- doesn't explain anything at all.

God is no less the logical dead-end as matter causing itself to exist is.

Never mind by now HOW the Primal Cause caused the universe to exist. That He did it, there is no doubt about it. Logic dictates to the mind of any thinker that the universe is composed of matter and that matter could not have caused itself to exist. If to you, the fact that the Primal Cause caused the universe to exist does not explains its existence, tell me yourself what caused the universe to exist because it does exist and it could not have caused itself to exist. All the mystery is found only in the mind of those who walk by faith and not by sight aka understanding. (II Cor. 5:7)

 

[PureX]

No, it is not a mystery if you can think logically. It is a fact that the universe is composed of matter and that matter cannot cause itself to exist. Since it had a beginning, it is only obvious that it had to be caused to exist. What then caused the universe to exist, you, I, or something else much bigger than you and me?

Causation is fundamental within the universe, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is applicable to beyond (before) the universe. The first case that we can now of is the 'Big Bang'. What preceded that is a mystery, so much so that we don't even know that we can label it a "cause", yet.

 

[Ben Masada]

Proof that God Exists

Proof that God Exists

1 - The universe is not "composed of matter".
2 - The universe is energy expressing itself. Matter is one of the ways energy expresses itself. So is time, space, motion, light, heat, and so on.
3 - The point being that existence is energy expressed.
4 - And we do not know what the origin of all this energy is, or why it can express itself in some ways, but not in others.
5 - Some people call this mystery "God", some call it irrelevant, and some ignore it all together.
6 - But the mystery remains.
7 - And you don't know the answer to this mystery any more than I or anyone else, does. Pretending isn't knowing. Believing isn't knowing. And in our case (humanity) even knowing isn't knowing for certain.

1 - We all are parts of the universe. If we are not composed of matter as you imply, probably we all are only bags of air floating in space.

2 - Energy, time, space, motion, light, heat, etc, all all accidents of matter. If matter did not exist, none of those accidents would ever happen.

3 - Existence of what, energy or matter? I think you are the one creating the mystery.

4 - I do know what the origin of energy is: Matter. Were not for matter, there would be no origin of energy.

5 - I call it matter. Only that it was caused by something else albeit no derived from matter that preceded it.

6 - Yes, only in the mind of the one who can't think logically.

7 - I have told you above that I do. Hence, the mystery is no longer a mystery to me but as I have just said, only to those who can't think logically.

 

[bybee]

Causation is fundamental within the universe, but that doesn't necessarily mean it is applicable to beyond (before) the universe. The first case that we can now of is the 'Big Bang'. What preceded that is a mystery, so much so that we don't even know that we can label it a "cause", yet.

We are Stardust! I go from there!

 

[Ben Masada]

A Proof that God Exists

BEN MASADA said,

Now, go tell the atheists who deny the existence of the Primal Cause.
---------------------------------------------------

1 - THEY HAVE MOSES AND ELIJAH WHO WILL SOON BE HERE

2 - AS THE TWO WITNESSES let them hear them.

3 - Luke 16:29 Abraham saith unto him, they have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.

1 - Moses and Elijah will never be here. They were Jews and according to the Prophets, Jews once dead, will never return. (II Sam. 12:23; 14:14; Isa. 26:14; Job 7:9; 10:21)

2 - The two witnesses in the Tanach is a reference to Israel and Judah.

3 - This, according to the parable presented by Jesus of the Richman and Lazarus, is a reference to "Moses" aka the Law as the only way to escape hell-fire. (Luke 16:29-31)