ECT A Preterist Time Chart

[Interplanner]

If they are good answers, I'm sure some one will quote them.

 

[Danoh]

I hope I haven't lowered myself!

re the delay
With the destruction of Israel out of the way, but no 'harvest' of all the elect, and no new heavens-new earth, I don't see any other way to summarize it. The Father simply decided not to end the world as planned. I also wonder about 2 Peter: ch 2 is so much like Jude (did a college paper on that), and ch 3 explains that there is to be a delay so that more will come to repentance. Did he wait and write ch 3 after the DofJ or did he already know there would be a delay, and write it before? Or were the scoffers doubting the Messiah--doubting that Jesus was Christ-- because he did not orchestrate and execute a deliverance from foreign powers? I'm not inclined that way because he compares the doubted coming to the cataclysm of Noah, which also completely changed the world as they knew it.

Lattourrette p44 (I think) says that once 72AD went by and there was no 2nd coming, the apostles simply carried on with the mission of proclaiming but had no set beliefs about the 2nd coming's timing; only that it was to be the judgement of the world. I'm short on ECF comments on Pompeii, but I can see one of them saying or asking 'Is it starting?'

In other words...

though I hope I haven't lowered myself!

re the delay
With the destruction of Israel out of the way, but no 'harvest' of all the elect, and no new heavens-new earth, I don't see any other way to summarize it. So what I've done is to just guess that The Father simply decided not to end the world as planned. I also wonder about 2 Peter:because I often wonder, who, but who, ew, ew, ew - who wrote the Book of Love - ch 2 is so much like Jude (did a college paper on that - pulled out ALL my books on that one, and then some!), and ch 3 explains that there is to be a delay so that more will come to repentance. But back to my wondering who wrote the Book of Love- Did he wait and write ch 3 after the DofJ or did he already know there would be a delay, and write it before? Or were the scoffers doubting the Messiah--doubting that Jesus was Christ-- because he did not orchestrate and execute a deliverance from foreign powers? I guess I could have turned to the Scripture in search of an answer - but I'm not inclined that way because he compares the doubted coming to the cataclysm of Noah, which also completely changed the world as they knew it. And that is a good enough guess for me...

Silly Bible - hey, I know what! Lattourrette p44 (I think) says that once 72AD went by and there was no 2nd coming, the apostles simply carried on with the mission of proclaiming but had no set beliefs about the 2nd coming's timing; only that it was to be the judgement of the world. I'm short on ECF comments on Pompeii, but I can see one of them saying or asking 'Is it starting?'I mean, that's where I'm at now - I've always got my endless books about (thanks, Danoh!) but I'm at a point now where I can basically guess at or make things up as I go along, with the best of my favorite clueless writers - now watch STP ruin my post by accusing me I make these things up.

 

[George Affleck]

re the delay
With the destruction of Israel out of the way, but no 'harvest' of all the elect, and no new heavens-new earth, I don't see any other way to summarize it. The Father simply decided not to end the world as planned. I also wonder about 2 Peter: ch 2 is so much like Jude (did a college paper on that), and ch 3 explains that there is to be a delay so that more will come to repentance. Did he wait and write ch 3 after the DofJ or did he already know there would be a delay, and write it before? Or were the scoffers doubting the Messiah--doubting that Jesus was Christ-- because he did not orchestrate and execute a deliverance from foreign powers? I'm not inclined that way because he compares the doubted coming to the cataclysm of Noah, which also completely changed the world as they knew it.

Lattourrette p44 (I think) says that once 72AD went by and there was no 2nd coming, the apostles simply carried on with the mission of proclaiming but had no set beliefs about the 2nd coming's timing; only that it was to be the judgement of the world. I'm short on ECF comments on Pompeii, but I can see one of them saying or asking 'Is it starting?'

I guess I just never think of it in terms of a delay. I have always thought of the time from Jesus to the end of the world as a time appointed by the Father for the harvesting of the elect and a time of preparation for souls to populate the new heavens and new earth.
It is true that some of the disciples had early misunderstandings about Jesus' mission and as it related to how historical events would unfold, but I don't know of any scripture that states that the end of the world was planned to happen at a specific time except as known only to the Father. I don't quite see how we can speak of an event being delayed if it is a secret known only to Him. Even if we think the disciples expected it to happen, which I am not convinced of, that is not enough evidence for us to conclude that God expected it too.

Any verses that fall into the category of "the end", except as they relate to the NHNE, I have interpreted to apply to the end of the old covenant, the sacrificial system, and the Jewish redemptive economy. When that happened, the Jews lost their special status and both Jew and Gentile were to come to God by the blood of Christ alone.

I also think that there was a certain sense in which there was a "coming" in judgement, an "appearance" of wrath being poured out on the bankrupt and desolate Jewish system whereby God used the Romans as His instrument of desolation. In the same way that God was in the pillar of fire that protected the children of Israel from the Egyptians, the Roman army represented the arm of God's judgement. As Daniel puts it, desolation came upon the desolate.

Full preterism says this was the expected 2nd coming of Christ. But other clear scriptures tell us that Jesus will return bodily at the end of time and I am convinced that this is what Jesus is describing after verse 34 of Matthew.

 

[steko]

But other clear scriptures tell us that Jesus will return bodily at the end of time and I am convinced that this is what Jesus is describing after verse 34 of Matthew.

I agree with you about Mat 24:34, but what do you mean by the term 'end of time'?

Do you mean that there will come a time when there is no time, no sequence of events?

If so, what scriptures do you base this on?

 

[Interplanner]

GeorgeA wrote:
It is true that some of the disciples had early misunderstandings about Jesus' mission and as it related to how historical events would unfold, but I don't know of any scripture that states that the end of the world was planned to happen at a specific time except as known only to the Father.




re misunderstanding the mission:
Well, yeah! They didnt' even think it was going to happen! In Lk 24, they still expected the 'redemption' of Israel in the upper-class Jerusalem sense of a painless, miraculous removal of Roman admin. At least I think they knew he was not going to be a captain in bloody battle; he had made that clear. The upper classes of Jerusalem with their compromised comfortable lives under Rome did not want battle either. Only the zealots and Galileans did, and God was going to appear in the middle of it and make them victorious.

But the mission? I don't think even the shock of what is said in Lk 24 or Acts 1 sunk in until the Spirit actually came, and even then not all of them. See how slowly and skeptically they welcome Gentiles. Dude, where's my throne over Israel? Christ turned the conferring of kingdom power...into a force for successful proclamation.

re the end of the world
The 490 years were nearly up. Christ had said they'd see the AofD in the temple making a mess. (When your group is expecting to see God fight for you and you are the general, it's easy to claim to be god.) The expectation from Isaiah was that the NHNE would come on the heals of the DofJ. The immediacy of the end of the world is in many, many places in the NT, and the NHNE was expected right after.

This is where the insertions of D'ism are such a waste and bombast. 1900 years later they come along and say that there's going to be another round of Judaism all over again. It dangles from a few passages poorly, Mt 23's 'blessed is he...', Rom 11:26 'all Israel will be saved...' acts 3's 'restoration.' Yet the places that have a paragraph or more on the 2nd coming in judgement are without reference to Israel at all. I've listed them 1000x.

 

[Interplanner]

I agree with you about Mat 24:34, but what do you mean by the term 'end of time'?

Do you mean that there will come a time when there is no time, no sequence of events?

If so, what scriptures do you base this on?

The NHNE is not the same corporeality as we have now. There is no marrying. God himself is the light and the Lamb is the temple.

 

[Interplanner]

I guess I just never think of it in terms of a delay. I have always thought of the time from Jesus to the end of the world as a time appointed by the Father for the harvesting of the elect and a time of preparation for souls to populate the new heavens and new earth.
It is true that some of the disciples had early misunderstandings about Jesus' mission and as it related to how historical events would unfold, but I don't know of any scripture that states that the end of the world was planned to happen at a specific time except as known only to the Father. I don't quite see how we can speak of an event being delayed if it is a secret known only to Him. Even if we think the disciples expected it to happen, which I am not convinced of, that is not enough evidence for us to conclude that God expected it too.

Any verses that fall into the category of "the end", except as they relate to the NHNE, I have interpreted to apply to the end of the old covenant, the sacrificial system, and the Jewish redemptive economy. When that happened, the Jews lost their special status and both Jew and Gentile were to come to God by the blood of Christ alone.

I also think that there was a certain sense in which there was a "coming" in judgement, an "appearance" of wrath being poured out on the bankrupt and desolate Jewish system whereby God used the Romans as His instrument of desolation. In the same way that God was in the pillar of fire that protected the children of Israel from the Egyptians, the Roman army represented the arm of God's judgement. As Daniel puts it, desolation came upon the desolate.

Full preterism says this was the expected 2nd coming of Christ. But other clear scriptures tell us that Jesus will return bodily at the end of time and I am convinced that this is what Jesus is describing after verse 34 of Matthew.

The last 3 paragraphs are good, and I now think you are saying the angels to the four winds are evangelists, missionaries. Except for 'the heavens'...

v28 seems to be about the encircling of Rome

Bringing me back to the cataclysmic things expected in v29: cosmic events were expected and the whole world would be changed to the NHNE or judged in fire...

The DofJ almost did start all this, with Josephus reporting and/or seeing something like a sword circle down over Jerusalem as if to 'cut' it all off... "The sign of the Son of Man in the sky..."

 

[George Affleck]

I agree with you about Mat 24:34, but what do you mean by the term 'end of time'?

Do you mean that there will come a time when there is no time, no sequence of events?

If so, what scriptures do you base this on?

The disciples, in asking their questions, were, not surprisingly, mixing up the end of the world with the end of Judaism as the only way to the Father. When Jesus came, He clearly declared that the only way to the Father was through Him. This included Jews and now also included Gentiles, even to the ends of the earth. It would not even be clear at the time He spoke the words, but they would remember what He said after the cross and when He sent the paraclete, His Spirit, especially in Acts 2, they would more clearly understand.

"That day and hour...", in my view, begins Jesus' teaching on the second, personal coming of Christ at the end of the world/time. When time runs out. When the last of the elect has been called from the uttermost parts of the earth. This is the destruction of a world/universe, labouring under the effects of sin and the curse and the translation of all who love Jesus, both dead and still alive, into the mansions He is preparing for us; the NHNE where time does not exist.

I apologize to those who are convinced of a restoration of Israel and the reinstitution of the daily sacrifices, but the finality surrounding the historical events in 70 AD and Jesus' declaration that their house is left unto them desolate convinces me otherwise. There is no more precious commodity in the universe than Jesus' blood. Moving backwards to those things that are past simply makes a mockery of Christ's once-and-for-all sacrifice. I see the main message as a story of redemption and not as a complicated timeline for us to follow.

 

[steko]

The NHNE is not the same corporeality as we have now. There is no marrying. God himself is the light and the Lamb is the temple.

That did not answer the question.

Will there be the passage of time and if so, why use the term 'the end of time'?

Is the phrase 'end of time' used in the Scriptures?

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

The NHNE is not the same corporeality as we have now. There is no marrying. God himself is the light and the Lamb is the temple.

Explain this for us,


Rev 21
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[George Affleck]

The last 3 paragraphs are good, and I now think you are saying the angels to the four winds are evangelists, missionaries. Except for 'the heavens'...

I am saying that it would seem natural and reasonable; considering angels can be messengers or envoys, ambassadors for Christ, carrying messages from God.

v28 seems to be about the encircling of Rome

Do you mean encircling of Jerusalem by Rome? I would say Luke 19:43KJV and Luke 21:20KJV are clearer for that.

Bringing me back to the cataclysmic things expected in v29: cosmic events were expected and the whole world would be changed to the NHNE or judged in fire...

But if the events of 29 are connected naturally (making conversational sense) to verse 28 and the cataclysm is not cosmic but national and local, that is, the judgement of Israel, the passage flows in a coherent way. See entry 165 of the Abomination of Desolation thread. http://theologyonline.com/showthread.php?110844-the-abomination-of-desolation&p=5100015#post5100015

The DofJ almost did start all this, with Josephus reporting and/or seeing something like a sword circle down over Jerusalem as if to 'cut' it all off... "The sign of the Son of Man in the sky..."

Although a great deal can be learned from Josephus, I find it concerning that Preterists place so much weight on his testimony alone. It is interesting, even important, but not necessarily wholly reliable. The events may have taken place as he records or may be embellished, or partially hearsay. I think it is probably not, but, if I complain that present day Christians interpret prophecy by the newspaper headlines (and I do...), this is really not a lot different; just that Josephus, an eyewitness, was the reporter.

However, if we go only by scripture, there was not to be a sign in the heavens as some think but rather a sign that the Son of Man was in heaven. Matt 24:30KJV This is made clear by the second part of the verse.

Some think this sign was the arrival of the Holy Spirit in Acts 2, some can point to his ascension. I rather think that the destruction of the temple was that clear and final sign that He was conducting all things as He foretold and that He was, indeed, reigning from heaven.

 

[Interplanner]

how can a cataclysm not be cosmic when it involves one end of heaven to the other.

Eph 3 says that principalities and powers in the heavens are already observing the unity in Christ in the church; perhaps they are redeemable, and God is saving some of them.

 

[George Affleck]

how can a cataclysm not be cosmic when it involves one end of heaven to the other.

Eph 3 says that principalities and powers in the heavens are already observing the unity in Christ in the church; perhaps they are redeemable, and God is saving some of them.

Sorry, I think we may be talking about 2 different things.

I was referencing verse 29 - Matt 24:29KJV

You are probably talking about verse 27 - Matt 24:27 showing that His second coming would not be secret (v. 26).

 

[Interplanner]

the end of 31 actually

 

[steko]

The disciples, in asking their questions, were, not surprisingly, mixing up the end of the world with the end of Judaiinlsm as the only way to the Father.

I don't think they were confused about it at all.
Christ had already showed them that the kingdom would be taken away from the then ruling class of Israel and be given to them, the little flock and that they would reign from 12 thrones over the 12 restored tribes of Israel.
They certainly understood by then that He was the only way to the Father.

When Jesus came, He clearly declared that the only way to the Father was through Him. This included Jews and now also included Gentiles, even to the ends of the earth.

Though Christ's work on the cross and resurrection certainly was the basis for gentile salvation, it wasn't actuated until a third of the way through the history of Acts, with Israel's casting away for rejection of Messiah. The so-called 'great commission' of immediate post-resurrection was to be accomplished through the salvation of Israel and the return of her Messiah, according to prophecy. It was through Israel that the nations would be blessed, not only for the source of Messiah but through a restored Israel under the reign of Messiah.

It would not even be clear at the time He spoke the words, but they would remember what He said after the cross and when He sent the paraclete, His Spirit, especially in Acts 2, they would more clearly understand.

Yes, they would remember as the Spirit would bring to memory whatsoever He had said unto them, but what He said and what they believed was in perfect harmony with prophecy for the nation of Israel.

"That day and hour...", in my view, begins Jesus' teaching on the second, personal coming of Christ at the end of the world/time. When time runs out.

Yes, I agree but still it was in harmony with OT prophecy for Israel becoming head of the nations under Messiah.
I still disagree with the phrase 'end of time'. Time goes on with the passing of events. And, 'end of the world' means 'end of the age'.... the earth continues on from that point.

When the last of the elect has been called from the uttermost parts of the earth.

In Mt 24, the term 'elect' refers to GOD's chosen/bachir/eklectos nation and the final believing elect being gathered back to the land, again...all in harmony with what the OT prophets said.

Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.

This is the destruction of a world/universe, labouring under the effects of sin and the curse and the translation of all who love Jesus, both dead and still alive, into the mansions He is preparing for us; the NHNE where time does not exist.

Nope, lots to happen on this earth after the Lord returns. Acts 3:21
Then much later in the NHNE there will be a sequence of events, thus the passage of time.

I apologize to those who are convinced of a restoration of Israel and the reinstitution of the daily sacrifices

No apologies necessary.
You believe what you believe.
We just disagree....very much.

, but the finality surrounding the historical events in 70 AD and Jesus' declaration that their house is left unto them desolate convinces me otherwise.

That was the finality of the fig tree/the religion of Israel.
It wasn't the finality of the vine/the nation of Israel.

When the Lord said that, He also said, 'Jerusalem(the center of Israel), you shall not see me henceforth until you[Jerusalem] say unto me, "Baruch haba b'shem Adonai", thus fulfilling Ps 118.
Then put Acts 3 with it where Peter says, "You men of Israel, repent and He shall send Jesus".
Israel will be pressed until a remnant repents and calls on the name of YHVH/Yeshua.

There is no more precious commodity in the universe than Jesus' blood.

Amen, that's for sure!

Moving backwards to those things that are past simply makes a mockery of Christ's once-and-for-all sacrifice.

Likewise, retrofitting Paul's 'but now' concerning the mystery BOC back into Paul's 'time past' concerning prophecy for Israel is unjustifiable eisegesis.

I see the main message as a story of redemption and not as a complicated timeline for us to follow.

I see the main message as being GOD's glory and the redemption of man being a part of it.
But there is a timeline and Paul instructs us to rightly divide the word of truth.
Then he gives us instructions in Eph 2 as to how to do that.

'Time past' 'But now' 'Ages to come'

We don't conflate what GOD intended to be and what is historically distinct in Scripture.

 

[Danoh]

I don't think they were confused about it at all.
Christ had already showed them that the kingdom would be taken away from the then ruling class of Israel and be given to them, the little flock and that they would reign from 12 thrones over the 12 restored tribes of Israel.
They certainly understood by then that He was the only way to the Father.



Though Christ's work on the cross and resurrection certainly was the basis for gentile salvation, it wasn't actuated until a third of the way through the history of Acts, with Israel's casting away for rejection of Messiah. The so-called 'great commission' of immediate post-resurrection was to be accomplished through the salvation of Israel and the return of her Messiah, according to prophecy. It was through Israel that the nations would be blessed, not only for the source of Messiah but through a restored Israel under the reign of Messiah.



Yes, they would remember as the Spirit would bring to memory whatsoever He had said unto them, but what He said and what they believed was in perfect harmony with prophecy for the nation of Israel.




Yes, I agree but still it was in harmony with OT prophecy for Israel becoming head of the nations under Messiah.
I still disagree with the phrase 'end of time'. Time goes on with the passing of events. And, 'end of the world' means 'end of the age'.... the earth continues on from that point.



In Mt 24, the term 'elect' refers to GOD's chosen/bachir/eklectos nation and the final believing elect being gathered back to the land, again...all in harmony with what the OT prophets said.

Deu 30:3 That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee.
Deu 30:4 If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
Deu 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Eze 37:9 Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and breathe upon these slain, that they may live.

Zec 2:6 Ho, ho, come forth, and flee from the land of the north, saith the LORD: for I have spread you abroad as the four winds of the heaven, saith the LORD.
Zec 2:8 For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

Isa 66:19 And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.
Isa 66:20 And they shall bring all your brethren for an offering unto the LORD out of all nations upon horses, and in chariots, and in litters, and upon mules, and upon swift beasts, to my holy mountain Jerusalem, saith the LORD, as the children of Israel bring an offering in a clean vessel into the house of the LORD.



Nope, lots to happen on this earth after the Lord returns. Acts 3:21
Then much later in the NHNE there will be a sequence of events, thus the passage of time.




No apologies necessary.
You believe what you believe.
We just disagree....very much.



That was the finality of the fig tree/the religion of Israel.
It wasn't the finality of the vine/the nation of Israel.

When the Lord said that, He also said, 'Jerusalem(the center of Israel), you shall not see me henceforth until you[Jerusalem] say unto me, "Baruch haba b'shem Adonai", thus fulfilling Ps 118.
Then put Acts 3 with it where Peter says, "You men of Israel, repent and He shall send Jesus".
Israel will be pressed until a remnant repents and calls on the name of YHVH/Yeshua.



Amen, that's for sure!



Likewise, retrofitting Paul's 'but now' concerning the mystery BOC back into Paul's 'time past' concerning prophecy for Israel is unjustifiable eisegesis.



I see the main message as being GOD's glory and the redemption of man being a part of it.
But there is a timeline and Paul instructs us to rightly divide the word of truth.
Then he gives us instructions in Eph 2 as to how to do that.

'Time past' 'But now' 'Ages to come'

We don't conflate what GOD intended to be and what is historically distinct in Scripture.

Great, great post, steko!

And the following is just a thought in general.

It is pretty obvious why such as Affleck do not see these things - such have ended up having subscribed to a system of approach to things that had attempted to solve for them absent of key passages the absence of which could not but end them up at a different picture of things altogether.

Thus, while he appears a bit more reasonable, say, then Interplanner; until he actually explores what those pieces might be and how they might fit, he is simply not going to see where we are coming from, no matter how we might phrase one comment, or question or another to him, no matter how many comments or questions we might ask.

It remains fascinating, this issue of perception.

Again, great, great post.

 

[Danoh]

how can a cataclysm not be cosmic when it involves one end of heaven to the other.

Eph 3 says that principalities and powers in the heavens are already observing the unity in Christ in the church; perhaps they are redeemable, and God is saving some of them.

No, they are observing this church that was a mystery...until Paul.

But I have already just noted (which applies to your approach even more) your basic schematic is off - thus, it's not like you're even going to see this.

Nevertheless, the grace of Romans 5:8 towards you.

 

[SaulToPaul 2]

Explain this for us,


Rev 21
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.

2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

:idunno: IP

 

[Interplanner]

Steko wrote:
Christ had already showed them that the kingdom would be taken away from the then ruling class of Israel and be given to them, the little flock and that they would reign from 12 thrones over the 12 restored tribes of Israel.




But STeko, this is certainly mixing up a lot of traffic! The guy had announced that his mission was to the whole world, which everyone should have known from 'In your Seed (one person) all the world will be blessed.' So when the new employees of the vineyard are hired, they are the missionaries who will produce the fruit of the Gospel.

This guy announced that his kingdom was NOT like those of the earth, especially at the moment when they were asking about which (literal) seat they were going to sit in. He told them instead they most of them would face martyrdom! Are you not aware of the string of verses in Luke that makes the difference between the world's kingdom and the kingdom of God about as vast as it can be?

You are quite mistaken to try to preserve a kingdom for Israel all through the material; the kingdom that was to come was not by might, nor by power, but by His Spirit.

The Mt 21 parable ends with a superb play on words: he's going to make a 'people' (ethne) which is not a legal entity with buildings and offices, but a new kind of man, a new kind of race--one that exists by its faith in the Gospel and nothing else.

The depth of your forcing the usual kind of kingdom on the NT is totally mistaken.

In Lk 24 they are dismayed to find out he did not 'redeem' Israel--while they had missed the actual message. In Acts 1 they stupidly ask about it one more time, and he says the power of his kingdom is just about to impact planet earth. After that, finally, the question is gone, as it should be.

 

[Interplanner]

Steko wrote:
The so-called 'great commission' of immediate post-resurrection was to be accomplished through the salvation of Israel and the return of her Messiah, according to prophecy




No, this is again way off. It always was there, as the Psalm says: 'the Lord gave the word, and there was a huge number of those who proclaimed it,' and Isaiah: 'it is too small a thing to restore the fortunes of Israel; I will make you a light to the nations.' Nothing so-called about it.

I've actually never heard anyone put the great commission label on a restored Jewish kingdom. No, it was not gonig that way at all.

Where did this locating the rejection of Messiah in Acts come from? Ever read Luke 13:34, sheesh.

The refreshing was taking place through the mission and Spirit of God, and the restoration of all things (all, as in all) was the NHNE. The end of the world was expected right after the destruction of Jerusalem, in many, many places in the NT.

The mission work did start with them, obviously, but was constantly burgeoning out, as we see in Lk 7:1-10.

The 'Israel' of Christ was those missionaries and their impact on the world. they turned it upside down, Acts 22.