Spitfire
New member
We do not maintain that Mary was Jesus' mother from eternity. That would make no sense. But God could not have become incarnate without having a human mother.
ECT A Christian forum administrator speaks out about Catholicism
- Thread starter Redeemed-777
- Start date
Redeemed-777
New member
The dog of the world's greatest plagarizer gets a big laugh out of your posts!
Thanks, and keep 'em comin' ... I don't have to feed him as much, if he's busy laughin'.
Even his fleas got a big kick out of this one! ... :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/41911-catholic-heresy-record.html
Cruciform
New member
Please at least try and make sense.
Typical anti-Catholic stereotypes based on ignorance---erroneous claims based upon sola scriptura (which is itself taught nowhere in Scripture, and so is directly self-refuting), the false claim that Catholics deny that Mary needed a Savior (we deny no such thing), etc., etc., etc. Same old distortions and misrepresentations passed down from Protestant to Protestant and uncritically accepted without actually thinking about it. As sad as it is predictable.
Gaudium de veritate,
Cruciform
+T+
Redeemed-777
New member
Rolfie gets a big laugh out of your posts!
Thanks, and keep 'em comin' ...
I don't have to feed him as much, if he's busy laughin'.
Cruciform
New member
In want of any actual counter-argument whatsoever, he resorts to mere childish ridicule. My statements therefore stand exactly as posted.
Redeemed-777
New member
Thou hast often read and heard all of the many counter-arguments,
thus all that is left for Rolfie to do is to have a big laugh ...
and he does so with my permission ...
P.S. it's great to have an intelligent dog who is not spiritually blind and deaf.
Cruciform
New member
Post #25.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Well, in early times, most believed in the divinity of Christ, and the big problem was that they doubted His humanity... The idea that He could have a human mother and actually BE fully a human being was what was in doubt, and hence the sacred iconography of the Church depicting our Lord as a baby in the arms of His Mother, the Blessed Virgin...
You DO refer to her as Blessed, yes? I did not see you doing so in your post...
So that the iconography to which you object simply demonstrates in images that which did indeed exist materially during the childhood of our Lord, who was born as the God-man from the Blessed Virgin whose name was Mariam...
The curious fact is that the very words of Scripture invoke images in the imaginations of those hearing them, whether read to or read by themselves, and such private imaginings would make of Holy Writ what it is seen to be today, which is the private imaginings of every individual reading it individually... Hard to avoid, actually... So that to object to the worshiping community's usage of images of that to which the words of Scripture refer is seen by us as the exaltation of the objector's personal imaginings over that of the worshiping community...
The Bible teaches that Christ is God, and that His Mother is fallen... And it also teaches that He called her Gyne, which is the same word used for Eve in the Garden... And just as fallen man's mother is Eve, and Adam is their father, so also those of us who are Brothers of the Lord Who IS our Father, have Mariam for our Mother... If She is not your Mother, Dear Christian, then Christ is not your Brother... For we are speaking of the Body of Christ, and the Household of God on earth and in the Heavens...
If you have been baptized into Christ, you have put on Christ, and His Mother is YOURS as well, for we are co-inheritors of the Heavenly Kingdom with Him...
And fwiw, the only Immaculate Conception known to man is that of Christ according to the Angel Gabriel's word by the invitation of the Blessed Virgin AFTER she established that her virginity would not be violated...
Arsenios
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Redeemed-777
New member
IMO, Gabriel called Mary "blessed among women" because she was the one chosen.
She was not only living a righteous life, but she was a virgin.
I assume that she was as righteous as Zach and Liz.
Mariology is Mary worship, am I correct?
Worship of anyone or anything other than God is verboten, am I correct?
I do understand that not all Catholics worship Mary.
I am told that icons in the Orthodox churches were instituted early on
... to teach/illustrate Scripture to the ignorant masses who could not read.
If a believer had a real spiritual revelation of the true natures of Satan and man,
he/she would obviously and seriously stick to: Sola Scriptura!
Yes, this also comes from spiritual revelation!
Which is where all spiritual truth comes from.
Arsenios
Well-known member
Arsenios wrote:
You DO refer to her as Blessed, yes?
She was much more so, for as Elizabeth said, she is the Mother of my Lord, and she said this IN THE HOLY SPIRIT... Remember?
And more, the Blessed Virgin herself said: "All generations shall call me blessed." She did not mean all generations of satanists would call her Blessed, but instead meant all generations of Christians... And if this is true, then if you claim Christianity as your Faith, you MUST call her Blessed...
It is worshiping Mary as God (or Goddess)...
Yet we call even Tyrants "Your Worship" and it means our total subservience to them in matters of State... Likewise, the term REVERENCE - It means bowing down before, and Protestants until very recently, and some even now, refer to their pastors as the Reverend, or the Right Reverend, Pastor Worth, or Paul, or other name...
There is worship of God, which in the Greek is, I believe, latreia, and there is Reverence of the Persons of God as is meet and right... The key is Love of God and Love FOR God, and God exists IN the flesh of His Holy Ones...
So it is not the legalistic understanding you wish to impose upon the word worship as being the ONLY word to denote our very great reverence for God... The Love of God we give to God, and by it, we love all of God's creation, and especially the Holy Ones of God in whom He abides...
We worship her but not as God, but as the Mother of our Lord in the Flesh... The Latins do tend to go a little overboard, but it is understandable, because She is a Figure and Type for the Church [as written in Revelation], which is the Bride of Christ, through Whom He came into His earthly creation, and in Which - eg within the Body of Christ - and through which - eg through the Body of Christ - we find our intermediation to the Father...
So the matter is not so simplistic as it can be legalistically be made to sound... And the Blessed Virgin IS alive, and can and does hear our prayers to her, and does intercede with Her Son and our Lord in our behalf... Exactly HOW that happens is another Mystery, but it is true not only of her but of all the saints in whom God abides...
They depict people and events in the Life of the Church, which now, since the incarnation of Christ, is the movement of the Holy Spirit in the People of God in their history as the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ...
In a way, the iconography is what Scripture describes, and Scripture is what Iconography illustrates... The early people were pre-literate, had great memories, and were visually oriented, and not literately oriented...
It is, in a word, the Sacred Art of the Body of Christ... We commemorate Luke as the first iconographer, and the first icon was not by Luke, but was by Christ Himself, Who placed a cloth on His face, which left his image on that cloth [The icon of the Holy Napkin, unmade by human hands], which He sent to heal a man whom He had not the time to visit...
Early Christians indeed DID have such Revelation, as do Christians to this very day, and from it, they then WROTE the Scriptures, you see... The Discipleship of the Church TAKES the believer from his fallen condition to a relationship with God that then is ABLE to comprehend the meaning of those Scriptures to which you seek to restrict yourself in words, rather than in the Living Presence and Grace of God Himself, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
There, you said it yourself, but can you disciple it in deed, and not simply in words written ABOUT that deed...??
Arsenios
You DO refer to her as Blessed, yes?
She was much more so, for as Elizabeth said, she is the Mother of my Lord, and she said this IN THE HOLY SPIRIT... Remember?
And more, the Blessed Virgin herself said: "All generations shall call me blessed." She did not mean all generations of satanists would call her Blessed, but instead meant all generations of Christians... And if this is true, then if you claim Christianity as your Faith, you MUST call her Blessed...
It is worshiping Mary as God (or Goddess)...
Yet we call even Tyrants "Your Worship" and it means our total subservience to them in matters of State... Likewise, the term REVERENCE - It means bowing down before, and Protestants until very recently, and some even now, refer to their pastors as the Reverend, or the Right Reverend, Pastor Worth, or Paul, or other name...
There is worship of God, which in the Greek is, I believe, latreia, and there is Reverence of the Persons of God as is meet and right... The key is Love of God and Love FOR God, and God exists IN the flesh of His Holy Ones...
So it is not the legalistic understanding you wish to impose upon the word worship as being the ONLY word to denote our very great reverence for God... The Love of God we give to God, and by it, we love all of God's creation, and especially the Holy Ones of God in whom He abides...
We worship her but not as God, but as the Mother of our Lord in the Flesh... The Latins do tend to go a little overboard, but it is understandable, because She is a Figure and Type for the Church [as written in Revelation], which is the Bride of Christ, through Whom He came into His earthly creation, and in Which - eg within the Body of Christ - and through which - eg through the Body of Christ - we find our intermediation to the Father...
So the matter is not so simplistic as it can be legalistically be made to sound... And the Blessed Virgin IS alive, and can and does hear our prayers to her, and does intercede with Her Son and our Lord in our behalf... Exactly HOW that happens is another Mystery, but it is true not only of her but of all the saints in whom God abides...
They depict people and events in the Life of the Church, which now, since the incarnation of Christ, is the movement of the Holy Spirit in the People of God in their history as the Ekklesia, the Body of Christ...
In a way, the iconography is what Scripture describes, and Scripture is what Iconography illustrates... The early people were pre-literate, had great memories, and were visually oriented, and not literately oriented...
It is, in a word, the Sacred Art of the Body of Christ... We commemorate Luke as the first iconographer, and the first icon was not by Luke, but was by Christ Himself, Who placed a cloth on His face, which left his image on that cloth [The icon of the Holy Napkin, unmade by human hands], which He sent to heal a man whom He had not the time to visit...
Early Christians indeed DID have such Revelation, as do Christians to this very day, and from it, they then WROTE the Scriptures, you see... The Discipleship of the Church TAKES the believer from his fallen condition to a relationship with God that then is ABLE to comprehend the meaning of those Scriptures to which you seek to restrict yourself in words, rather than in the Living Presence and Grace of God Himself, The Father, Son and Holy Spirit...
There, you said it yourself, but can you disciple it in deed, and not simply in words written ABOUT that deed...??
Arsenios
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Redeemed-777
New member
No, the Mystery is why anyone would believe that
we should be a-prayin' to Mary and the saints also!
Thou must be about your Father's business
a-PROVE-in' this to us spiritual idiots!
But, askin' PROOF via Scripture would be a real joke, wouldn't it?
So, I can't imagine ...
what other PROOF wouldest thou be a-presntin' that might be a tad impressive?
