2 Peter 3's word choice on existence and creation

I

Interplanner

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If 'formless and void' has as much to do with a huge sinister creature as it does in other ancient near east cosmology, then there maybe a metaphor.

Rather than find a figure of speech in Genesis 1, I go with actual description for now because of Peter in 2 Peter 3's "through water and with water." V5 is saying things that I think are how we are supposed to read Genesis:

1, the heavens existed long ago (this time frame is distinct vocabulary chosen to be further back than when 'earth was formed.')
2, the earth was formed. Note the language that answers 'unformed' or 'formless.' This occurs later than the existence of the heavens. He uses distinct terms.
3, the forming was out of water and with water. Very interesting match to Gen 1:2.
4, the amount of time between 'forming' and the flood is relatively short. They are put together as 'the world of that time' whereas the existence of the heavens is much older. Biblical chronologists have a point about how short this is, but seemed to be in the dark about 'formless and void' and about Peter's word choice.

Once again, it is imperative that a person sort out 'formless and void' before saying how the Bible does cosmology. It is very strange that the YEC folks have almost nothing to say.

There is a rumor that 'formless and void' was discussed here at TOL. I can't find that and I have asked for a summary but no one has given that either.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Six days means six days. I realize wolves like you are going to try and discredit the Bible as long as possible on a site like this. Be warned you will face sharp, to the point, rebuttal. And when you don't answer, you will be mocked.

Exodus 20

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


Doesn't void mean empty? Genesis 1 gives the timeline of filling the earth. Genesis 2 gives detail to day 6. Void is not an issue and it explains perfectly the rest of Genesis 1. It means what it says.
 
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I

Interplanner

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Yes, 2 Pet 3 is very helpful. He says that the heavens existed for quite a long time before this earth was formed. he uses specifically different terms and time frames to communicate this. The flood is grouped with our formed earth (they are part of 'that' world) which makes me inclined to view all Gen 1 'yom's as 24 hour mornings and evenings in spite of morning and evening being there before a local star was here.
 
I

Interplanner

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Nick M said:
Six days means six days. I realize wolves like you are going to try and discredit the Bible as long as possible on a site like this. Be warned you will face sharp, to the point, rebuttal. And when you don't answer, you will be mocked.

Exodus 20

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.


Doesn't void mean empty? Genesis 1 gives the timeline of filling the earth. Genesis 2 gives detail to day 6. Void is not an issue and it explains perfectly the rest of Genesis 1. It means what it says.
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Because of how the account of Gen 1 creation 'forms' and 'fills' the earth, I'm inclined to think that 'void' means 'unfilled'--nothing growing there, either plant or animal. In the same way our local area of space was empty, and when a male was created it was not good; there was no way to 'fill' things until woman.

In contrast, void can range as wide as non-existent. I don't think 'wa-bohu' means non-existent. Instead it is one of two words chosen to describe something barren and lifeless that exists; a watery mass meandering in space.
 
Bradley D

Bradley D

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"formless" in Hebrew "tohu" can mean "empty space/nothing." God created the universe/earth from nothing. "Void" "bohu" means "emptiness."

In Genesis 1:3 " And God said." God spoke the universe into being.

"By the word of the LORD were the heavens made; and all the host of them by the breath of his mouth" (Psalm 33:6).
 
Nick M

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Interplanner said:
Because of how the account of Gen 1 creation 'forms' and 'fills' the earth, I'm inclined to think that 'void' means 'unfilled'--nothing growing there, either plant or animal.
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He spoke the earth into existence. Let there be an expanse in the waters.

Exodus 20

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.
 
I

Interplanner

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'Forming' does not mean nothing was there. Gen 1 says something was already there. So does 2 Pet 3. Yes, the forming was quick. But it was through and out of materials already there.

This means that when Heb 11 says nothing, it does not mean void or non-existent, but a chaotic, primitive, lifeless thing.
 
I

Interplanner

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This material should have been in the first post. I'll copy it to the other discussions of creation.

2 Peter 3's vocabulary on creation and time.

v5a The heavens existed. 'ekpalai' To have existed for a long time. The NEB is not reliable here when it puts heavens and earth together as the subject. The NIV is correct.

5b. The earth was formed out of water and through water by God's word. 'sunestosa' to be given structure, sense, consistency.

Like Gen 1, there is a universe in existence while the earth was not the form we now have. There is nothing about 'sunestosa' that indicates time like 'ekpalai' does. That comes next.

v6 that (ancient) world was destroyed by water. Notice again that the habitable part is the focus. It does not mean the entire planet was destroyed, just as 'sunestosa' does not mean it came into existence from nothing. Both mean the habitable zone was given livable structure or it was taken away.

Peter is saying there was a relatively short amount of time between creation and the flood because both are grouped as being part of 'that (old) world.'

By referring only to the habitable zone, he is also validating that there was a different atmosphere. That's the world that was formed then destroyed. We are now in a world with a different atmosphere. This is yet another reason why 'sunestosa' is not from nothing at all but rather the forming of material into a certain structure. It is from no structure, but it is not from no materials.

The intention of Peter was to show that the judgement of the world did not necessarily have to happen right after the Gospel events, nor even right after the destruction of Jerusalem. That it could still be delayed a long time. For the same reason, there is no hurry when dating the 6 days of creation. The heavens existed long before. (If you think that the coming of v4 is the Gospel event, that's a separate discussion).

We know that 'formless and void' is the result of an act of judgement from Jer 4:23. So Peter is saying here that God was patient about what was going on before his own 6 days of creative work, but finally destroyed--in displeasure-- what was there and made a world habitable for mankind who would have an imprint of God like no other.

Both the gospel writers and Paul refer to the judgement of Israel as settled (the house is left desolate; the wrath of God has come upon them completely) many years before the destruction of Jerusalem. Peter uses the examples of the primitive earth and the flood to show that the judgement will certainly come no matter how much they are doubted.
 
I

Interplanner

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6days mentioned one observation from another thread: that in 2:3 God had warned 'ekpalai' long ago about scoffers. In that context, it would mean a warning well ahead of time.

In later verses in the context of creative works, 'ekpalai' is contrasted with the more recent 'sunestosa' or forming of the earth (not producing materials for it but forming it through and from water). The heavens existed long ago; the earth was more recently formed and in a very short time that world was 'liquidated' in the flood.

6days had the notion 'ekpalai' would mean one particular fixed time forever any time the term is used. But context (and other objects to attach it to) say otherwise.

Peter showed that the judgement on that previous worlds (both before this earth and the world of the flood) waited for some time and then was enforced. 'Formless and void' is the result of an act of judgement by God. That was his illustration about the pending judgment (whether that's about Israel or the whole world does not matter).
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Interplanner said:
Gen 1 says something was already there. So does 2 Pet 3. Yes, the forming was quick. But it was through and out of materials already there.
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Exodus 20

11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
 
I

Interplanner

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Yes, Nick, and yet Gen 1 and 2 Pet 3 say other things about this.

Ex 20 does not mention 'formless and void' so we can't use it to further our understanding of the expression like we can Jer 4:23.

Ex 20 is a short summary of all that happened for the sake of establishing that our Creator is Lord of nature when giving the commands, but it doesn't claim to be an account of creation like Gen 1 or 2 Pet 3.

There are also summaries of the day the Lord brought Israel out of Egypt that don't include all the backstory and details. So we wouldn't say, 'see it happened in one day' when there were actually a lot of other things leading up and involved.
 
Nick M

Nick M

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Interplanner said:
Yes, Nick, and yet Gen 1 and 2 Pet 3 say other things about this.

Ex 20 does not mention 'formless and void' so we can't use it to further our understanding of the expression like we can Jer 4:23.
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Exodus 20 is the law. The Holy Spirit had the authors put everything in the Bible so when you make moron comments (like now), all will be clear. Six days means six days.
 
I

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Nick M said:
Exodus 20 is the law. The Holy Spirit had the authors put everything in the Bible so when you make moron comments (like now), all will be clear. Six days means six days.
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Gen 1 does not necessarily have 'formless and void' within the 6 days. Neither that nor 2 Pet 3 agree with you on that. Stop the insults or you will be ignored and I don't think you want that; it's up to you.
 
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