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[Yorzhik]

I believe you're referring to dictatorship and a constitutional republic, correct?

Almost, I'm referring to a constitutional monarchy and a constitutional republic.

So what makes you think the system we have now is incapable of reforming?

Because the majorty has no-one to take responsibility, and the majority will never die.

Let me see if I'm crystal-clear on this issue: a leader popularly elected cannot recognize the error of his ways, but a ruler with absolute power who might wind up being an arbitrary despot is capable of this change?

No, a leader popularly elected is not the leader... the electorate is.

And, yes, a ruler with absolute power is capable of change. Isn't the fact that it has happened in history proof enough?

 

[Zakath]

"Man's capacity for justice makes democracy possible, but man's inclination to injustice makes democracy necessary. "

- Reinhold Niebuhr, The Children of Light and the Children of Darkness


"Democracy is the most efficient form of government ever invented by the human race. On the record, it has worked better in peace and in war than fascism, communism, or any other form of dictatorship. As for the mythical yardstick of 'benevolent' monarchy or dictatorship -- there ain't no such animal!"

- Robert Heinlein, "Take Back Your Government"

 

[Granite]

I don't understand why you keep making this distinction. You're saying the masses can never change (though scripture says otherwise) and a ruler with absolute power can? This strikes me as wishful thinking.

 

[Yorzhik]

I don't understand why you keep making this distinction. You're saying the masses can never change (though scripture says otherwise) and a ruler with absolute power can? This strikes me as wishful thinking.

Scripture says the masses can change (for the better)? I don't believe it.

Scripture says a ruler cannot change? Are you sure?

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Scripture says the masses can change (for the better)? I don't believe it.

Scripture says a ruler cannot change? Are you sure?

Ninevah repented and Pharaoh hardened his heart.

 

[Turbo]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

Scripture says the masses can change (for the better)? I don't believe it.

Scripture says a ruler cannot change? Are you sure?

Well, the Ninevites did repent in response to Jonah's preaching, which was somewhat surprising I think. But their king repented too. I think his example and leadership was important to played an important role in maintaining their repentance and belief in God, considering how fickle large groups tend to be.

 

[Zakath]

Originally posted by granite1010

...and Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Several times.

But he had "help" on several occasions, IIRC. :think:

 

[ShadowMaid]

Oops, ShadowMaid wasn't logged out and I didn't check... this is Yorzhik. I'll never get my post count up at this rate.

Ninevah repented and Pharaoh hardened his heart.

Ninevah - see what happens when you have a king? The whole place can change quickly. Reread Jonah, it was the king. You really believe that if Ninevah was a republic that they would have repented? How many good people do we have in America that preach similar to Jonah? Do things get better or worse? Do we have a hope of getting better?

Sure, a king can change for the worse. But he can change for the better, unlike a majority electorate.

 

[Granite]

There's no reason to believe that repentance is somehow impossible in any government other than a monarchy.

 

[Yorzhik]

True, but having one person being compelled to change is a lot easier than compelling millions to change.

 

[Granite]

Originally posted by Yorzhik

True, but having one person being compelled to change is a lot easier than compelling millions to change.

If a king repents there's no guarantee whatsoever that it'll have a Trickle-Down Redemption effect on his nation.

It's almost as if you're trying to legislate repentance, or try to somehow assure it, if we happen to have a righteous ruler.

 

[way 2 go]

In a democracy how do you elect a righteous person with an unrighteous populace ?

Simple logic tells us unrighteous people will elect an unrighteous leader .

 

[Yorzhik]

If a king repents there's no guarantee whatsoever that it'll have a Trickle-Down Redemption effect on his nation.

That isn't what we've experienced in history, but I can't prove you wrong, either. Unless you consider history as compelling evidence.

It's almost as if you're trying to legislate repentance, or try to somehow assure it, if we happen to have a righteous ruler.

It worked for Ninevah, but that's no guaranty. I'd say it doesn't matter. If the king happens to be righteous, at least the laws will be good, and good people will be allowed to live in peace.

 

[Granite]

The king will be good MOMENTARILY, as will ANY ruler until he or she is kicked out of office. There's no huge advantage to a monarchy; there are massive potential disadvantages (including conditioning a populace to accept the idea of a centralized, strongman-style dictatorship).

Considering that even Israel's "righteous" kings wound up fornicating, murdering, apostasizing, and weakening their nation over time, I can't see any real improvement over the system we have now.

 

[Yorzhik]

The king will be good MOMENTARILY, as will ANY ruler until he or she is kicked out of office.

Could you explain this more? It doesn't seem to make sense.

There's no huge advantage to a monarchy; there are massive potential disadvantages (including conditioning a populace to accept the idea of a centralized, strongman-style dictatorship).

Could you explain more what a centralized strongman-style dictator is.

Considering that even Israel's "righteous" kings wound up fornicating, murdering, apostasizing, and weakening their nation over time, I can't see any real improvement over the system we have now.

Because Israel's (and most other of the fornicating, murdering, apostasizing kings of history) didn't extend that priveledge to the citizens. That is an improvement over the our present system.

And all the weakening of the country in a kingdom. Do you blame it on the people or entirely on the king?

 

[Granite]

How exactly is murder and conspiracy a "privilege"???

 

[Yorzhik]

Granite, I'd just like to say that you are a fine gentleman with flawless logic skills and a wonderful ability to understand subtle points.

 

[Granite]

Thanks, Yor, that's very helpful. Keep taking lessons on wit and one of these days you'll get the hang of it.

 

[Yorzhik]

Oh, you've discovered my lack of wit. Only a true friend would be that honest.