10 things I'm right about, whether you agree or not.
- Thread starter Mystery
- Start date
I am challenging you on your very first belief. and you haven't responded to a single Bible verse I've laid down which singularly and colletively counter your first belief.
Now go back to them and reconcile them with your belief...I'll make it easy..just use the ones I dropped in today..one or two postings before.
If you put these beliefs down...then you need to defend them. Get busy.
Now go back to them and reconcile them with your belief...I'll make it easy..just use the ones I dropped in today..one or two postings before.
If you put these beliefs down...then you need to defend them. Get busy.
Mystery
New member
Look, you idiot. You don't get to decide how this plays out. If you want answers, you have to respond to my questions. I answered your questions, by PROVING that you contradicted yourself. Shall I post your contradictions again?
You are a false teacher, and biblically inept.
Answer my question, or go away.
Is your answer that no one is "SAVED" until they die?
Is it possible after someone is dead that they can be UN-SAVED?
YES or NO answers. ONLY.
Mystery, Nice try.....but I haven't contradicted myself (yet)...I just haven't felt compelled to fit the Words of God into your little minded yes|no question. Post the contradiction and we'll let others here decide.
By the way, I don't want your answers...I couldn't care less about your answers...I want to see how you defend your principal beliefs in the face of Scripture....you seem way long on un-Christian like invective and hot opinion...and short of dispassionate substantiation...for a Bible-believing person.
But first...here's how Jesus answered the question.
From Luke:
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
doesn't sound like an Altar call to me?
By the way, I don't want your answers...I couldn't care less about your answers...I want to see how you defend your principal beliefs in the face of Scripture....you seem way long on un-Christian like invective and hot opinion...and short of dispassionate substantiation...for a Bible-believing person.
But first...here's how Jesus answered the question.
From Luke:
25On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. "Teacher," he asked, "what must I do to inherit eternal life?"
26"What is written in the Law?" he replied. "How do you read it?"
27He answered: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind'[c]; and, 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[d]"
28"You have answered correctly," Jesus replied. "Do this and you will live."
doesn't sound like an Altar call to me?
SaulToPaul 2
Well-known member
When did Mystery ever say that we are saved by an "altar call"?
I seriously doubt that he did...
I seriously doubt that he did...
Mystery
New member
Yes, you have.
See, this is why you are a moron.
If someone "never" loves God, they cannot "stop" loving God.
In order to stop loving God, you must have loved God.
Now, answer the questions, or admit defeat.
Is your answer that no one is "SAVED" until they die?
Is it possible after someone is dead that they can be UN-SAVED?
YES or NO answers.
Since God has not sinned from eternity past and will never sin into eternity future, the end result is the same. God cannot sin or will not sin. He is sinless and will always be sinless. He is personal and has a mind and will, but always conforms this to holiness, truth, righteousness, love.
The impeccability of Christ is a similar debate.
I said the fruit is a thing, not the Spirit. You know I am trinitarian and fully affirm the Deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Since you cannot even represent my view on the Godhead, why should anyone trust your opinion on my views of sanctification?
Does love have any volitional element? You are so paranoid about volition, choice, obedience (you wrongly think it must be self-righteous negating freedom and responsibility in the process) that you cannot make sense of basic concepts.
Rom. 6:16 our obedience (our will) leads to righteousness...it is also possible to disobey or live selfishly vs in love leading to death (selfishness is volitional and opposite of love which is also volitional...God choses to love; He is not just metaphysically 'Love' like Christian Scientists teach).
Jn. 14:21 Only the ones who obey Jesus with their wills love Him...it is not just a passive fruit.
I Jn. 2:17 Doing the will of God leads to living forever...this is volitional, not just parroting ideas.
Do you love your wife and kids? Can an atheist without the life of Christ love theirs?
Rev. 21:8 Unbelieving go to lake of fire...clearly, someone can be a genuine believer for many years...just because they fall away and no longer believe does not mean they were never believers; it means they are no longer believers; to say OSAS, contradicts the fact that unbelievers are not believers and are condemned like any other unbeliever...they love Self, not God, just like their pre-conversion state.
Jn. 15:1-6 affirms the importance of continuing to love and abide in Him. The Vine is Christ, not the Church. True believers can be cut off if they cut themselves off from the Son, in whom alone is Life. You think life is unconditionally given to a person who can then reject the Son later and still have eternal life? Forfeiture happens if cut off and thrown in the fire.
Shank: Let us accept at face value our Savior's grave and loving warning that it is indeed possible for us to forfeit eternal life by failing to abide in Him 'who is our life'.
"Throughout his earthly sojourn, the relation of the individual to Christ is never a static relationship existing as an irrevocable consequence of a PAST decision (rulz- that is no longer true for apostates!), act, or experience. Rather, it is a present mutual indwelling of the believer and the Savior, the sharing of a common LIFE which emanates from Him 'who is our life' (Col. 3:4). For the believer, it is a living participation procedding upon a living faith (not one that reverts to godless unbelief -rulz) in a living Savior. The principle is reduced to its simplest statement in the words of Jesus, 'Abide in me, and I in you.' Jn. 15:4 "
What happens when we do not continue to abide in Him (present, continuous tenses)? We are cut off from the Vine (Christ) and His life and thrown in the fire (death and separation). I Jn. 5:11-13 (remain in the Son, not go back to your vomit or the pigpen/Peter).
2 Peter 1:3-11 notice how love can be possessed in ever increasing measure...it can also wane or be forsaken (Rev. 2:4 it is not just automatic fruit of the Spirit in a passive way, or Paul and Jesus would not have to urge love for God and others rather than self and world...both are possible for a believer).
2 Peter 1:9 If you do not have these things, you forget that PAST (not your future sin doctrine; give me a proof text about forgiven future sins before they happen) sins have been forgiven.
I Jn. has principles and exhortations about believers loving one another. You are evidence of a believer hating other believers, contrary to a claim to love God. To love God vertically is tested in our love for others horizontally.
To avoid logical fallacies, sometimes your yes/no answers need qualifying.
I Jn. 5:11-13 (present tenses) show that we can know we have eternal life NOW. Justification is the point of conversion upon repentant faith in the present. We are saved when we believe and receive Him and His life (Jn. 1:12; Jn. 3:16). This does not preclude a conditional element.
In another sense, one's destiny is not fixed until death or Second Coming. In the interim, it is possible to fall away or apostasize. Those who do so, will not be glorified with the saints because perseverance has not taken place. God will save and keep all who yield to Him. He will not cause salvation or perseverance if a person rejects His grace and power by rejecting Christ and the Holy Spirit.
I was saved in 1978. My name is in the Lamb's book of life. Since I will die in this state, my name will never be blotted out. He will keep me (Jude 24-25) because I continue to remain in Him by His love and grace. If I spit in His face and renounce Him (which I have no propensity to do because of His love and life flowing through me), I can expect to not share in His promises to those who die in Him.
Heb. 9:27 Destinies are fixed after death. There is no more probation or choice, unlike cultic teaching. No one will fall away or get converted in the after life. Many factors will change compared to this imperfect world where our choices have profound impact on this life and the next (not all are saved; not all persevere in this life; the next life is another story).
SaultoPaul,
Regarding altar call....this is probably the most visible and frequent way that Christians claim they were [past perfect tense] "saved". Mystery believes in OSAS, per his first point.
I use this non-Biblical term to point to the ludicrousness of OSAS....it flies in the face of so much of the Bible (see above, not yet touched by Mystery), and in order to maintain any consistency it forces Protestant believers in OSAS to decompose or outright ignore a lot of the Bible..and to start creating and handling all kinds of subcategories/exceptions (of time: pre-Jesus, during, post death/pre-resurrection, post-resurrection; and types of people; Jews, Gentiles, etc etc. and even more "spirtual states"more...justified, perfected, converted, righteous, and "saved"...etc.). I am sure you've heard all sorts of strained handling of the above. Sure, smooth talkers are able with a lot of handwaving to barely explain some of it...but as a scientist I learned that you should be cautious of having "more theory than the data demands". Considering salvation as a life long process vs. an altar call, it resolves all of the Bible with less theory and conjecture and armwaving.
So it's only fair to test these categories....so as one example: altar call, past-perfect "saved" Christians who have clearly fallen away. "former Christians" who now worship the devil (thus "never saved in the first place").
If one's explanation of salvation has to posit such circular criteria...it needs rethinking. If you can't definitively identify "saved" ahead of time...you don't have a full understanding of salvation.
Believers who take a more whole life view of the process of salvation..vs. the instant gratification style of OSAS.....don't have to run in circles.
Sure...they don't walk around cocksure and cranky like Mystery....but I don't see even St. Paul being so cocksure (why all the focus to his Christian/believing audience on sin..on hope...on "if".)
Regarding altar call....this is probably the most visible and frequent way that Christians claim they were [past perfect tense] "saved". Mystery believes in OSAS, per his first point.
I use this non-Biblical term to point to the ludicrousness of OSAS....it flies in the face of so much of the Bible (see above, not yet touched by Mystery), and in order to maintain any consistency it forces Protestant believers in OSAS to decompose or outright ignore a lot of the Bible..and to start creating and handling all kinds of subcategories/exceptions (of time: pre-Jesus, during, post death/pre-resurrection, post-resurrection; and types of people; Jews, Gentiles, etc etc. and even more "spirtual states"more...justified, perfected, converted, righteous, and "saved"...etc.). I am sure you've heard all sorts of strained handling of the above. Sure, smooth talkers are able with a lot of handwaving to barely explain some of it...but as a scientist I learned that you should be cautious of having "more theory than the data demands". Considering salvation as a life long process vs. an altar call, it resolves all of the Bible with less theory and conjecture and armwaving.
So it's only fair to test these categories....so as one example: altar call, past-perfect "saved" Christians who have clearly fallen away. "former Christians" who now worship the devil (thus "never saved in the first place").
If one's explanation of salvation has to posit such circular criteria...it needs rethinking. If you can't definitively identify "saved" ahead of time...you don't have a full understanding of salvation.
Believers who take a more whole life view of the process of salvation..vs. the instant gratification style of OSAS.....don't have to run in circles.
Sure...they don't walk around cocksure and cranky like Mystery....but I don't see even St. Paul being so cocksure (why all the focus to his Christian/believing audience on sin..on hope...on "if".)
Mystery, your Christian virtues...all unnessary of course from an OSAS perspective...are in short supply. think humility, think patience. In fact..come to think of it why isn't our Bible much much shorter....why isn't it just: do an altar call?
As I said about 16 messages ago..I might have written too hastily for you to get the gist of what I was saying.
so to cleanup or address the supposed contradiction (caused apparently by my writing too quickly..and your not thinking about the point being made in general).
If someone never loves God....but does an altar call, OSAS believes they will be saved. I humbly don't know what will happen to them. I believe they are playing with fire though.
My answer is...as before...based on the verses above.....that Salvation completes when I am judged by Jesus upon my physical death.
Is your answer that no one is "SAVED" until they die? Unanswerable.... I don't know what's in all peoples hearts when they die.
Is it possible after someone is dead that they can be UN-SAVED? Absolutely meaningless question. This question presupposes your view of salvation. My belief would be if they died sorrowful and accepting of Jesus...vs. what they did 30 years ago on an altar...they would be saved by the Lord. And so it's meaningless to suppose unsaving at that point. My thinking for this calls to mind the good thief during the time he shared with our Lord on Calvary.
As I said about 16 messages ago..I might have written too hastily for you to get the gist of what I was saying.
so to cleanup or address the supposed contradiction (caused apparently by my writing too quickly..and your not thinking about the point being made in general).
If someone never loves God....but does an altar call, OSAS believes they will be saved. I humbly don't know what will happen to them. I believe they are playing with fire though.
My answer is...as before...based on the verses above.....that Salvation completes when I am judged by Jesus upon my physical death.
Is your answer that no one is "SAVED" until they die? Unanswerable.... I don't know what's in all peoples hearts when they die.
Is it possible after someone is dead that they can be UN-SAVED? Absolutely meaningless question. This question presupposes your view of salvation. My belief would be if they died sorrowful and accepting of Jesus...vs. what they did 30 years ago on an altar...they would be saved by the Lord. And so it's meaningless to suppose unsaving at that point. My thinking for this calls to mind the good thief during the time he shared with our Lord on Calvary.
Yeah, I know I am going to get my "Behind" paddled here.
But in my opinion, only God has the right and will be the one who decides who will be "Saved"
To me it's not right to be confidently proclaiming "I am Saved" That is God's decision to make and His alone.
I also think there will be a lot of disappointed "Saved" people when they find out they are not.
I base this on the following Verses.
Matthew, Chapter 7,
20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
But in my opinion, only God has the right and will be the one who decides who will be "Saved"
To me it's not right to be confidently proclaiming "I am Saved" That is God's decision to make and His alone.
I also think there will be a lot of disappointed "Saved" people when they find out they are not.
I base this on the following Verses.
Matthew, Chapter 7,
20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21) Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22) Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23) And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Mystery
New member
You are without a doubt the most ignorant person to ever spam this site.
When you die, Bill, will you, at that time, know if you are saved or not?
I can't believe anyone is a dense as you.
If you don't think I know what it means to be saved, then use your own definition. I don't care. I just want you to tell me when someone is or is not saved (past tense). You do know what "past tense" means, right? It's like when a bell has been rung (it cannot be un-rung). Like when a car has crashed (It cannot be un-crashed). Or like when a child has been born (it cannot be un-born).
We shall see if you are bright enough to comprehend something so simple.
If you find out after you die if you are saved or not, is it possible from that point on to become un-saved?
Yes or No?
Repeatedly calling me ignorant and stupid, won't help me. And it doesn't make your case. So....why must you persist in doing these things? How does this bring Jesus to others <your job on earth>.
I don't know when someone is saved or not. I don't have to know. The Bible doesn't say I need to be able to do this. And, equally, as my untouched-by-you Scriptual references point out, it remains equivocal when this is so. So, how can you be so presumptive to think you can know when someone else is saved...or not?
You're so smart with verb tenses...let's move out of silly car crash examples...and get into serious matters:
When does God's love end?
How long does God's mercy last? When does it end?
When does forgiveness stop?
When exactly is your salvation done?
I don't know when someone is saved or not. I don't have to know. The Bible doesn't say I need to be able to do this. And, equally, as my untouched-by-you Scriptual references point out, it remains equivocal when this is so. So, how can you be so presumptive to think you can know when someone else is saved...or not?
You're so smart with verb tenses...let's move out of silly car crash examples...and get into serious matters:
When does God's love end?
How long does God's mercy last? When does it end?
When does forgiveness stop?
When exactly is your salvation done?
Mystery
New member
Like you care.
I know you don't.
You don't have a clue what you are talking about. I could posts dozens of verses to prove you wrong, but you are not interested in what the bible says, so we need to first establish what YOU think it MEANS to be saved, and WHEN someone IS saved, and HOW someone is saved. However, YOU refuse to discuss these simle questions, which are the basis of whether or not once a person IS saved, are they always saved.
Until YOU can settle in your mind what salvation is and how someone is saved, the discussion is pointless and unfruitful.
YOU refuse to do that. That is why you are an idiot.
OMEGA
New member
There are many ways to look at being saved.
One of them is that No one is Saved until Jesus comes and saves them
from the Wrath of God.
Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake:
but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
---------------------------------------------------------
Another is that the Christian must keep the Faith until their death.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
One of them is that No one is Saved until Jesus comes and saves them
from the Wrath of God.
Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake:
but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
---------------------------------------------------------
Another is that the Christian must keep the Faith until their death.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mystery,
No slideslipping allowed...you were the one superciliously teaching about verb tenses....so answer the REAL verb tense questions I posed. For ease of answering:
When does God's love end?
How long does God's mercy last? When does it end?
When does forgiveness stop?
When exactly is your salvation done?
You can only answer these questions definitively by putting God in a small little time box...which is what OSAS does.
Before posting dozens of other verses...please answer the ones I already gave you that point to a more profound (no small little past perfect time box) understanding of salvation.
When you're done...I'll look at the other verses....but in the end...the answer needs to be unitive.
Of course I am interested in what the Bible says...look above....you're clearly running away from those verses like a little girl.
Your desire for 'simple questions and simple answers' belies your desire to put God's mercy in a little time box. OSAS fails because it tries to put God on our timeline.
Just how small is your view of God? I can already see how small your view of Man is.
No slideslipping allowed...you were the one superciliously teaching about verb tenses....so answer the REAL verb tense questions I posed. For ease of answering:
When does God's love end?
How long does God's mercy last? When does it end?
When does forgiveness stop?
When exactly is your salvation done?
You can only answer these questions definitively by putting God in a small little time box...which is what OSAS does.
Before posting dozens of other verses...please answer the ones I already gave you that point to a more profound (no small little past perfect time box) understanding of salvation.
When you're done...I'll look at the other verses....but in the end...the answer needs to be unitive.
Of course I am interested in what the Bible says...look above....you're clearly running away from those verses like a little girl.
Your desire for 'simple questions and simple answers' belies your desire to put God's mercy in a little time box. OSAS fails because it tries to put God on our timeline.
Just how small is your view of God? I can already see how small your view of Man is.
Mystery
New member
Go straight to hell, Bill.
If you want act like an idiot, do it on your own time.
You refuse to answer two simple questions, so you get NOTHING from me until you do.
Adamhart
New member
Tinkling cymbal post of the week
Let the future browser note, Mistery's continued failure to defend even the first item on his very own list.
Browse backwards and note his hesitation to address Scripture, his failure to answer his own questions, and his continued small minded namecalling.
Let him wallow.
Out.
Semper Fidelis.
Browse backwards and note his hesitation to address Scripture, his failure to answer his own questions, and his continued small minded namecalling.
Let him wallow.
Out.
Semper Fidelis.
Adamhart
New member
You messin' with my Catholic brothers and sisters, Mister?