Honest struggles on God’s omniscience.

ttruscott

ttruscott

Well-known member
Skywatch89 said:
I’m not talking about infants.
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Ok, but my theology applies to very person ever created in HIS image at any age of their existence...everyone created in HIS image had a true free will and the ability to choose...

The doctrine that some sinful people (called believers) will never be condemned and some sinners (called never believers ) are condemned ALREADY, Jn 3:18, implies that our time of choice is over.

And so does the fact that all people of every age are sinners and all sinners are enslaved to sin and so cannot save themselves by their own sinful choice but can only be saved by grace thru faith which 'proves' that some sinners have chosen faith before their sin and were promised salvation while other sinners rejected faith and so are stuck in their choice to be sinners for eternity because they rejected the only saviour who could save them. and their choice must be sacrosanct or it is not a free will choice.
 
ttruscott

ttruscott

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JudgeRightly said:
Omniscience means that God knows everything that exists to be known.
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GOD's omniscience, Calvin's failure:
Calvin followed the pagan Greek widom definition of omniscience brought into the church by the Greek idolizers and Augustine: ie, GOD knows everything that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. Certainly sounds all Godly and all eh? To bad it is false...

GOD is Love, holy, righteous and Just before all else. All doctrine must conform to HIS nature. All doctrine that impugnes HIS nature is a blasphemy.

This definition of HIS omniscience implies that HE knew before their creation who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY!!! This is not loving; it is not righteous; it is not just - no matter how many books of theo-babble have been written to try to make it so...therefore it is false.

GOD does all things for HIS pleasure but HE takes NO PLEASURE in the death of the wicked - therefore HE did not create them evil to go to hell! Ezekiel 33:11 Say to them, 'As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked...

Also, HE wants all people to be saved, 1 Timothy 2:4...who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. so whether HE will get this want fulfilled or not, HE obviously did NOT create anyone evil and without hope for salvation, ie, destined to hell at creation!

So what do I offer in its place? Acts 15:18 KJB Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. To be precise, HE knows all HIS works, usually accepted to be referring to all that HE has created by HIS creative decree, which implies that IF HE did not create something by HIS creative decree, HE does NOT KNOW IT.

Also, these things HE knows from, since, the beginning of the world, not BEFORE creation, not since eternity past. Therefore we have good Biblical reason to reject the pagan wisdom the ancient Church idolized.

This biblical definition of what HE knows also implies that If HE did NOT create the results of our free will decisions but let us create those results by our free will according to what we most wanted, THEN HE did not know these results of our free will decisions UNTIL we created them for ourselves and brought them into reality.

Therefore NO ONE was created evil; not before Adam (Satan etc) nor after Adam (you, me) but all sinners were created with a free will and an equal ability and opportunity to choose to become holy or eternally evil and then all sinners were sown into the world as per Matt 13:38-39.
 
JudgeRightly

JudgeRightly

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Skywatch89 said:
How is that possible if He’s omniscient? What things would He not know that if He doesn’t know it to prevent it, it could cause people to doubt.
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I understand the concern, but the issue is not that God lacks knowledge of some existing fact. The issue is whether every future free choice already exists as a settled fact to be known.

Omniscience means God knows everything that exists to be known. But if a future free choice has not yet been made, then it is not yet a settled fact. So God not knowing it as a settled fact is not ignorance; it is God knowing reality as it actually is.

And the “why didn’t God prevent it?” objection does not go away under the settled view. It gets worse, because then God knowingly created a world where every evil act was already guaranteed before anyone existed.
 
JudgeRightly

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Skywatch89 said:
How does God’s word define omniscience?
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Bright Raven said:
infinite knowledge and foreknowledge Psalm 147:5
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“Omniscience” is not a biblical term, so Scripture does not give us a dictionary definition of it. It is a theological term used to summarize what people believe Scripture teaches about God’s knowledge.

Psalm 147:5 says God’s understanding is infinite. Amen. But it does not say “infinite foreknowledge,” and it does not say every future free choice already exists as a settled fact before it is made.

That is the point under dispute.

If a thing is settled, God knows it as settled. If a thing is not yet settled, God knows it as not yet settled. That is not ignorance; that is God knowing reality as it actually is.

So the question is not whether God’s understanding is infinite. It is.

The question is whether “infinite understanding” requires an exhaustively settled future.

Psalm 147:5 does not establish that.
 
Clete

Clete

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Skywatch89 said:
How is that possible if He’s omniscient? What things would He not know that if He doesn’t know it to prevent it, it could cause people to doubt.
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He isn't omniscient!

At least not in the classical sense of that word! The real God is not the god of Aristotle.

As for causing people to doubt, that's sort of a laughable objection, right? The version of God you believe in is omniscient, right? Does that seem to have prevented people from doubting? Is there any shortage of unbelievers in the world?

Further, why would that be a proper reason to accept or reject such a doctrine anyway? Are we talking about wanting people to believe the truth or are we presenting them with worldview options that they choose buffet style, depending on which one causes them to feel better about what other people might think about it?

Understand the point there?

The truth is the truth. People may doubt it or not but that doesn't change the fact that our loyalty aught to be to the actual truth, not some version of it that we think might go over better with others.

P.S. One other thought occurred to me on this. People respond to this notion that God isn't a know-it-all as if we are suggesting that He is stupid or foolish. That is not the case. God is wise. Indeed, more than that, He is the very foundation and fountainhead of wisdom. He is Wisdom itself. He is perfectly well capable of deciding the sorts of things that He can and cannot afford to not know. I can assure you that there is nothing any of His created being are capable of that threaten either His righteous character or authority. He is not so stupid or foolish as to leave Himself in a situation where might be caught "flat footed" by the likes of mankind or even Satan himself.
 
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VladtheDestroyer

VladtheDestroyer

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Clete said:
As for causing people to doubt, that's sort of a laughable objection, right? The version of God you believe in is omniscient, right? Does that seem to have prevented people from doubting? Is there any shortage of unbelievers in the world?
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Exactly! Every fundamental reason an atheist has ever given me for their disbelief in God, almost always begins with "If God is omniscient...."
 
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