The entire thread is still here for the whole world to read, Gary.
That's good.
It's more than a passing interest. It's your pet doctrine. It is the excuse you use to reject Christianity.
It is more than a passing interest, I would agree with that. I would rather not go into all the reasons I don't accept many of the truth claims of conservative Protestantism, nor other forms of Christianity, nor other religions, etc. And I'm sure you wouldn't want to hear all that anyway!
Why would anyone care about the time when the Jews began writing about hell and heaven?
Well, I'm sorry I mentioned that. I don't want us to get distracted from the main issues.
It's no surprise. It seems that everything you were taught about Christianity wasn't biblical Christianity at all. You were taught Calvinism. Calvinists call themselves Christians but the ones that are actually saved, are so in spite of the mountain of false doctrine that is Calvinism.
Good thing I'm asking you questions! Of course, I might not agree with every one of your interpretations of the Bible, but you're not interested in my opinion anyway, so no need to talk about that.
Very well. I can live with that. You should understand then that there are folks here, myself included, that might know just a tad bit more about what the bible teaches than the atheists your reading and most certainly than whatever you're finding on Wikipedia, of all places.
Obviously you know more than I do about your own beliefs and especially how you process them emotionally!
As for me, my doctrine is based on God's quality. That is, my foundational presuppositions have to do with the fact that God is living, personal, rational, relational, righteous and just. Any doctrinal position that contradicts these qualitative attributes of God are false - by definition. This includes any ideas that someone might or might not have about the nature of Hell, which is, at best, a matter of some considerable speculation and debate even among those who love God and accept Christ as their savior from that very Hell. As such, anyone who rejects Christianity, and thereby rejects Christ, on the basis of someone's ideas about what Hell is going to be like is a fool who makes eternal decisions based on next to nothing of substance.
This aspect of your beliefs is very clear. But here's a (1)question whose answer isn't as clear: At one point you mentioned that children don't need to be saved. I think was because they might have no knowledge of good and evil. But when I was struggling with fear of hell I was maybe 9 years old, and I certainly knew what actions I needed to do to make me a good or bad kid. So wouldn't I need to be saved? Also you when we were discussing rebelling against God, you wrote that little babies have a conception of God. Is it possible to have a conception of God and not have knowledge of good and evil? Sounds like Adam and Eve! Yet, even without knowledge of good and evil, they rebelled against God and ate the fruit. Then came death.
Here's a (2)question I asked previously, but I think there was some distraction before it got answered. It gets back to the statement about everyone deserving death. Do Christians believe that only intellectually or does it include real life or death situations? For example, if you accidentally ran over somebody while driving a semi, crushing them causing instant death, you wouldn't remain calm and say to yourself, "Well, she deserved to die anyway." No, you might even go into shock! Isn't that because you don't really believe that the person deserved to die? On the contrary, I'm not at all upset if someone I really believed deserved to die, is killed. For example, didn't bother me in the slightest when Osama Bin Laden was killed. Do you really have that same belief about everyone?
Another(3) question based stemming from the doctrine that everyone deserves to die because they have sinned, they have rebelled against God.
Everyone deserved death because of sin. I assume that everyone also deserves old age because of sin. Now for Christians have had all their sins forgiven, so why do they suffer old age and death just like someone who hasn't had their sins forgiven?
Then there's the question(4) about how Christians emotionally handle the idea that billions, most of humanity, will end up suffering for eternity, with no recourse. It would seem that that ending would be incredibly depressing. However, Clete has given an answer: God loves everyone living, but at the moment an unsaved person dies, God's love ceases. Does that mean that a Christian's sorrow at the death of a loved one should also cease immediately? Or any attempt to remember the dead non-Christian should be discouraged? Is it possible for God or a Christian to turn of their emotions so easily?
There's the age old question(5) about why people who have never been taught much or at all about Jesus, why don't they get the opportunity to save themselves? I asked Hoping about all the Muslims, who would have little exposure to Christianity, which rejects Muhammad as a prophet. Hoping says, "If they really wanted God in their lives, God would have made Himself known to them, just as He did for the Christians who wanted God in their lives." So God just sort of writes off billions of living people who seem to think they are following God's will, but really don't want God in their lives. Of course, the Muslims would say that they're following God's will, but apparently they are all liars. Jesus died for their sins, but God anticipates that they're not interested so doesn't make that fact known to them?
Pleas note it is not necessary to respond to each sentence individually here, that can lead to monstrously long emails, endless tangents, and the answer to the question can get lost! Please, just give a clear, summary statement on your answers to these questions at your leisure. Thanks so much!
Gary
