Another tally of anti-trinitarian threads

[Trump Gurl]

Saying "blah blah blah" in response to anyone is rude . . .

Unless I am responding to a bunch of "blah blah blah", in which case it is just being real.

I am done with you.

 

[Trump Gurl]

 

[Mixed_Brown]

I don't often comment in threads. I mainly just follow to see individuals best arguments.
I saw both NWL and Pierac's comments about the standard of argumentation on TOL being very low. My observation is that for a while now individuals have expressed mainly emotional arguments rather than rational ones based on evidence. Or they just avoid difficult discussions and just assert that what they believe is correct.

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low.

Does anyone know any sites or forums where real debates on the Trinity and other subjects are still happening?

Or trinitarians, do you not know anyone who is well versed in scripture who you can encourage to come and give a biblical defense for your beliefs?

 

[Lonster]

I don't often comment in threads. I mainly just follow to see individuals best arguments.
I saw both NWL and Pierac's comments about the standard of argumenta I tion on TOL being very low. My observation is that for a while now individuals have expressed mainly emotional arguments rather than rational ones based on evidence. Or they just avoid difficult discussions and just assert that what they believe is correct.

Depends who is doing the argument and what thread you are in. There are plenty of good sites that discuss the Triune nature of God and there are a good many books as well. Most learned scholars ARE Triune. Every Seminary, every Bible college, have excellent courses.

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low.

:think: Honestly? I think your bias is showing. He uses scripture very often. He and I don't agree on all scriptures. I'd definitely NOT accuse him of poor argument or lack of scripture. It is VERY odd that Arians/Unitarians do. It just isn't demonstrable. Again, remember I don't agree with him on everything and I'd never accuse him of that!

Does anyone know any sites or forums where real debates on the Trinity and other subjects are still happening?

Or trinitarians, do you not know anyone who is well versed in scripture who you can encourage to come and give a biblical defense for your beliefs?

You can try DesiringGod.org I have a thread here on TOL in the exclusively Christian section where you will see the opposite: one of those you esteem above has two very crude and ungodly comments in it. They are the ones who could not discuss these topics patiently, with grace, nor with anything scripturally compelling, just rationalizations rather than explicit Word of God. This thread was never supposed to be a 'debate' thread over the triune nature of God, just an observation thread and discussion 'about' the need for so many threads (it is all Arians and Unitarians are interested in when talking to the rest of Christendom).

 

[Right Divider]

I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), ...

Funny how you "just asserted" this without ANY argument.

What a hypocrite!

 

[Trump Gurl]

. . . . I have to say after reading right divider poor arguments (which are just assertions), and Trump girls childish responses, as well as others, I can't help agreeing that TOL has hit all time low. . . . .

I'm crushed. The fact is that I gave the best responses here. But after a never ending onslaught of stupidity in response to my posts, I just started giving them what they seem to like: Crap.

Read these before you put on your God hat and start judging:

Jesus is God
Holy Spirit is God
Father is God
God is Trinity.

Jesus tells his apostles to baptize "in the name [notice, singular, not plural] of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" (Matt. 28:19). This is a proof-text: three distinct Persons united in the one divine name. In 2 Corinthians 13:14, Paul writes, "The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all." We see this same unity of divine Persons in 1 Corinthians 12:4–11, Ephesians 4:4–6, and 1 Peter 1:2–3.

The Bible clearly teaches that Jesus is God (cf. John 8:58, 10:38, 14:10; Col. 2:9). It also clearly teaches that the Holy Spirit is God (cf. Acts 5:3–4, 28:25–28; 1 Cor. 2:10–13). Everyone agrees the Father is God. Yet there is only one God (Mark 12:29, 1 Cor. 8:4–6, Jas. 2:19). How can we hold all four truths except to say all three are One God?

And yes, Jesus DID say he was God. In John 8:58, when quizzed about how he has special knowledge of Abraham, Jesus replies, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I Am"—invoking and applying to himself the personal name of God—"I Am" (Ex. 3:14). His audience understood exactly what he was claiming about himself. "So they took up stones to throw at him; but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple" (John 8:59).

Also significant are passages that apply the title "the First and the Last" to Jesus. This is one of the Old Testament titles of Yahweh: "Thus says Yahweh, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, Yahweh of armies: ‘I am the First and I am the Last; besides me there is no god’" (Is. 44:6; cf. 41:4, 48:12).



That is your problem. It makes sense to the entire Christian Church though.
Jesus is fully God and fully man. He has two natures perfectly united in one person. The term used to describe this is the "hypostatic union".

The hypostatic union is the term used to describe how God the Son, Jesus Christ, took on a human nature, yet remained fully God at the same time. Jesus always had been God (John 8:58, 10:30), but at the incarnation Jesus became a human being (John 1:14). The addition of the human nature to the divine nature is Jesus, the God-man. This is the hypostatic union, Jesus Christ, one Person, fully God and fully man.

Jesus' two natures, human and divine, are inseparable. Jesus will forever be the God-man, fully God and fully human, two distinct natures in one Person. Jesus' humanity and divinity are not mixed, but are united without loss of separate identity. Jesus sometimes operated with the limitations of humanity (John 4:6, 19:28) and other times in the power of His deity (John 11:43; Matthew 14:18-21). In both, Jesus' actions were from His one Person. Jesus had two natures, but only one personality.

So the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are distinguishable from one another in terms of hypostasis (the Scriptural term used, for example, in Hebrews, where Christ is the exact image of the hypostasis of the Father), but they are not "separate" (apart from one another or by themselves), as they share the same nature and same energy, but furthermore, as they are limitless, there is a perichoresis or "interpenetration" of the persons.

So there is similarity, but the similarity ends with the fact that the Divine nature is infinite and incorporeal, and human nature is finite and corporeal (as with all of created nature).

Hebrews: "God, who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person, and upholding all things by the word of His power (ὃς ὢν ἀπαύγασμα τῆς δόξης καὶ χαρακτὴρ τῆς ὑποστάσεως αὐτοῦ, φέρων τε τὰ πάντα τῷ ῥήματι τῆς δυνάμεως αὐτοῦ)

Jesus is God. In fact Jesus is fully God and fully Man, two natures perfectly joined into on e person. I know this is all above your head but try to keep up.

The second deepest mystery of the Christian faith concerns Jesus Christ-The God Man.

The terminology of “person” and “nature” is again used in describing this dogma. The Greek term “hypostasis” generally refers to person and The Hypostatic Union refers to the mysterious union of two natures (divine and human) in the single person of Jesus Christ. In a sense, The Hypostatic Union is the reverse of the Trinity. In the Trinity there is only one nature (divine) but three persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In the Hypostatic Union, there are two natures (divine and human) but only one person: Jesus Christ.

Many Christians never seem to fully realize that Jesus Christ is unique in the duality of His nature. God the Father does not have a human nature nor does God the Holy Spirit, but only God the Son does from the moment of His conception. All three persons, of course, have a divine nature.

This dogma was debated for a long time, but today overwhelmingly Christianity accepts it. For me, this mystery presents in some ways greater challenges than the mystery of the Trinity itself. How can the single person of Jesus Christ simultaneously experience agony in the garden in his humanity while continuing to enjoy the serenity that exists in the bosom of the Trinity in His divinity? I don’t know and neither does anyone else. The two natures, although mysteriously fused to the single personality of Christ, do not commingle which allows Jesus to experience agony and joy simultaneously in some mysterious way.

Of particular fascination to me, however, is the very fact that God did become one of us. Why did He? The best answer again is found in scripture:

“For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son”
John 3:16

The Incarnation is part of the divine plan for our salvation. Mary, the Virgin Mother of God, was the first among us to cooperate with God’s plan by freely consenting to the conception of His Son within her womb. The Son of God became one of us-as a stunning counter move to overcome the satanic scourge of sin. The devil was foiled by God in a way that no one could possibly have imagined. Only a divine person could adequately atone for the sins of humanity and Jesus Christ, in His humanity, played out that very role. It is difficult, in the extreme, to even begin to appreciate the degree of love that God has for us to make His only begotten Son the sacrificial lamb for our sake. If fully appreciated, in fact, we would simply never worry again.

God the Father sees all. He sees His Son dying in agony on Calvary-naked, betrayed, denied, mocked and abandoned. God the Father hears all including His Son’s cry from the cross:

“My God, My God, why has thou forsaken Me?”
Matthew 27:46

What father who ever lived would ignore such a plea at that moment, particularly one with the power of the entire universe in the palm of His hand? But, what did God the Father do with the fate of all humanity awaiting His response? Nothing. His only begotten Son fulfilled His mission and died. His Father did nothing to stop it. Of course, Jesus Himself spoke other words on the day of His death, which in addition to God’s love for us, may also serve to explain the lack of divine intervention. What words?

“Father forgive them for they know not what they do”
Luke 23:34

Those words were the greatest ever spoken on our behalf. Jesus knew that His Father would not turn down the request of His only begotten Son. Did Jesus act as our savior with that request? Absolutely! He was not seeking forgiveness merely for the Roman crucifixion detail nor for those among the religious and political authorities who had called for His death, but rather for all humanity whose sin, individually and collectively, nailed Jesus to His cross.

Christians are united in the belief that the atonement of Christ and the graces that flow from the cross are what bridge the otherwise infinite chasm between Holy God and Fallen Man. Regrettably, there are still divisions within the Body of Christ regarding the mechanism by which the free gift of salvation is accepted, but no difference regarding the necessity of Christ’s participation in that process:

“I am the way, the truth and the life: no one comes to the Father but by Me”
John 14:6

Jesus Christ by His atonement and by His call for forgiveness not only restored us to the Kingdom of God but also gave us a destiny now greater in redemption than it had been in creation. That is precisely why Christian theologians sometimes refer to original sin as the “happy fault” (felix culpa).

The Hypostatic Union elevates Christianity to the most awesome of all religions. Jesus freely partook of our humanity, so that we could partake of His divinity.

 

[Trump Gurl]

It's typically not required for someone to provide evidence to their claim. . . . .

A thousand times you have asked for evidence, two thousand times it has been given, and yet you continue to ask. At what point should we just write you off as a fundamentally dishonest person.

 

[Trump Gurl]

A thousand times you have asked for evidence, two thousand times it has been given, and yet you continue to ask. At what point should we just write you off as a fundamentally dishonest person.

You can write me off as being dishonest when you are actually capable of showing when and where I've ever been dishonest.

The dishonesty is in you pretending that you have not been given what you repeatedly ask for. When you are given evidence, you say that you have not been given evidence. You lie, repeatedly. Period.

Talking to you is worse than talking to a rock. At least a rock does not respond with dishonesty like you do. You are Ignored.

 

[keypurr]

That's been done MANY TIMES... but you still do not listen.

So your saying that Col 1:15 is in error?
How about Heb 1:3; the express image of God.......can you name any image that is not created?
Twist all you want but Jesus has a God and there is only one God as Jesus told you in John 17:3.
Follow the scriptures or follow the foolish people who thought the world was flat.

 

[keypurr]

The dishonesty is in you pretending that you have not been given what you repeatedly ask for. When you are given evidence, you say that you have not been given evidence. You lie, repeatedly. Period.

Talking to you is worse than talking to a rock. At least a rock does not respond with dishonesty like you do. You are Ignored.

Your evidence is flawed, just like Trump's.

 

[Trump Gurl]

What is the Trinity?
From Bishop Barron's DVD "Faith Clips"

What is the Trinity?
From Bishop Barron's DVD "Faith Clips"

Your evidence is flawed, just like Trump's.

Youre an idiot

 

[Trump Gurl]

Bishop Barron on the Meaning of the Trinity
On Trinity Sunday we contemplate the mystery of God as a play of persons. The Father gives rise to the Son while the Father and Son give rise to the Holy Spirit. God's unity is never compromised because the three are consubstantial, one in being. To begin to consider this mystery we must consider that love is what God is.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Catechesis On The Holy Trinity By Pope Saint John Paul II

Catechesis on the Holy Trinity by Pope Saint John Paul II – EpicPew

"It is the task of the Holy Spirit to put into the disciples' hearts the same joy that Jesus had, the joy of faithfulness to the love which comes from the Father."

epicpew.com

Between the years of 1985 to 1991, during the General Audiences, Pope Saint John Paul II gave the world an amazing series focused on the catechesis of the Holy Trinity. These catechetical lessons were part of John Paul’s Catechesis on the Creed. He began with God the Father in 1985 and 1986. He then continued with Jesus Christ, Son and Savior 1986 and 1989. He concluded this multiyear series in 1989 and 1991 with the Holy Spirit. In total, there are 238 teachings.

I hope that these words help you come to know the Most Holy Trinity in a more profound way and that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit will be with you always in prayer.

The correct attitude towards God
“I could not end this initial catechesis of our discourse on God without recalling a second fundamental attitude besides that of upright intelligence, mentioned above. This is the attitude of a docile and grateful heart. We speak of him whom Isaiah proposes to us as the three times holy (6:3). We must therefore speak of him with deepest and total respect, in adoration. At the same time, however, sustained by him “who is in the bosom of the Father and has made him known” (John 1:18), Jesus Christ our brother speaks of him with tenderest love. “For from him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory for ever. Amen” (Rom. 11:36).”

God is the Blessed Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit
“In this sense the New Testament contains the fullness of trinitarian revelation. God, revealing himself in Jesus Christ, on the one hand unveils who God is for man and, on the other, discovers who God is in Himself, that is, in his intimate life. The truth “God is love” (1 John 4, 16), expressed in the first Letter of John, possesses here the value of the keystone. If by means of it one unveils/is unveiled who God is for man, then one also unveils/it is also unveiled (inasmuch as it is possible for the human mind to understand it and for our words to express it) who He is in Himself. He is unity, that is, communion of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.”

Jesus brings the Holy Spirit to humanity and the Church​

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“We can say that Jesus Christ is he who comes from the Father as the eternal Son; he who went forth from the Father, becoming man by the power of the Holy Spirit. After having fulfilled his messianic mission as Son of Man by the power of the Holy Spirit, “he goes to the Father” (John 14:12). Going there as Redeemer of the world, he gives to his disciples and sends down upon the Church in all ages the same Spirit, in whose power he acted as man. In this way Jesus Christ, as he who “goes to the Father,” leads to the Father all those who will follow Jesus in the course of the centuries by means of the Holy Spirit.”​

​

Jesus reveals the Trinity​

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“But here it is important to point out that the Incarnation, even if it refers directly to the Son, is the work of the One and Triune God (cf. Fourth Lateran Council). This is already testified by the message of the Annunciation (cf. Luke 1:26-38). Furthermore, by his teaching, Jesus has proposed for our consideration “vistas closed to human reason” (Gaudium et Spes, 24) those of the inner life of the one God in the Trinity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Finally, having fulfilled his messianic mission, in departing from his apostles on the fortieth day after the resurrection, Jesus completed in every detail that which he had announced. “As the Father has sent me I also send you” (John 20:21). He told them: “Go, therefore, make disciples of all the nations; baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matt. 28:19).”​

Pentecost: the divine life is poured out
“Through the work of the Paraclete, the apostles and the other disciples became an “Easter people,” believers in and witnesses to Christ’s resurrection. Without reserve, they made the truth of that decisive event their own. From the day of Pentecost they were the heralds of “the mighty works of God” (Magnalia Dei).

“They were made capable of it from within. The Holy Spirit effected their interior transformation by virtue of the new life that derived from Christ in his resurrection and now infused by the new Paraclete into his followers. We can apply to this transformation what Isaiah prophesied metaphorically: “until the Spirit is poured upon us from on high, and the wilderness becomes a fruitful field, and the fruitful field is deemed a forest” (Isa. 32:15). Truly on Pentecost the gospel truth is radiant with light: God “is not the God of the dead, but of the living” (Matt. 22:32), “for all live to him” (Luke 20:38).”

The Holy Spirit can only give true joy
“Jesus invited his disciples to rejoice, to overcome the temptation to sadness at the Master’s departure, because this departure was the condition planned by God for the coming of the Holy Spirit: “It is better for you that I go. For if I do not go, the Advocate will not come to you. But if I go, I will send him to you” (John 16:7). It will be the Spirit’s gift to provide the disciples with a great joy, even the fullness of joy, according to Jesus’ intention. The Savior, after inviting the disciples to remain in his love, said: “I have told you this so that my joy might be in you and your joy might be complete” (John 15:11; cf. 17:13). It is the task of the Holy Spirit to put into the disciples’ hearts the same joy that Jesus had, the joy of faithfulness to the love which comes from the Father.”

 

[Right Divider]

So your saying that Col 1:15 is in error?

None of the Bible is in error, old heretic.

How about Heb 1:3; the express image of God.......can you name any image that is not created?

Again you LIE about a verse of scripture. And you are the HYPOCRITE that says that he loves the original languages.

EXPRESS IMAGE is an ENGLISH translation of a SINGLE Greek word:

G5481
χαρακτήρ
charaktēr
khar-ak-tar'
From the same as G5482; a graver (the tool or the person), that is, (by implication) engraving ([“character”], the figure stamped, that is, an exact copy or [figuratively] representation): - express image.
Total KJV occurrences: 1

You've been shown THIS MANY TIMES before, old heretic.

Twist all you want but Jesus has a God and there is only one God as Jesus told you in John 17:3.
Follow the scriptures or follow the foolish people who thought the world was flat.

Poor confused heretic.

Joh 20:28-29 KJV And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. (29) Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Not one word from Jesus objecting to being called LORD and GOD (hint: because He is LORD and GOD).

 

[keypurr]

None of the Bible is in error, old heretic.

Again you LIE about a verse of scripture. And you are the HYPOCRITE that says that he loves the original languages.

EXPRESS IMAGE is an ENGLISH translation of a SINGLE Greek word:

You've been shown THIS MANY TIMES before, old heretic.

Poor confused heretic.

Not one word from Jesus objecting to being called LORD and GOD (hint: because He is LORD and GOD).

So then you have two Gods. Your still in darkness

 

[Right Divider]

So then you have two Gods. Your still in darkness

I have one God and am in the light.
You are one of the most confused posters on TOL.

 

[Trump Gurl]

So then you have two Gods

SIR: How come you cannot understand that which everyone else is able to understand?

ONE GOD.

One "being", three "persons".

Do you understand the difference between a being and a person?

The person is the "who" and the being is the "what".

 

[JudgeRightly]

Were you born with some sort of limited brain capacity? Mildly retarded perhaps? Meth Baby? How come you cannot understand that which everyone else is able to understand?

ONE GOD.

One "being", three "persons".

Are you intelligent enough to understand the difference between a being and a person?

The person is the "who" and the being is the "what".

Since I'm pretty sure you haven't had much experience with Keypurr, he's 80+ years old and for the most part set in his self-made doctrine that he claims came about as a result of his many years of study.

 

[Trump Gurl]

Since I'm pretty sure you haven't had much experience with Keypurr, he's 80+ years old and for the most part set in his self-made doctrine that he claims came about as a result of his many years of study.

So definitely not a meth baby. Okay, I'll lighten up. I guess I should edit my post.

 

[Right Divider]

Since I'm pretty sure you haven't had much experience with Keypurr, he's 80+ years old and for the most part set in his self-made doctrine that he claims came about as a result of his many years of study.

In Aramaic